Dafydd
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Purveyor of finely crafted historical pavilions.
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Post by Dafydd on Jul 27, 2010 17:18:43 GMT -5
Hi folks,
I am curious about the insulating properties of silk.
I originally come from NW Pennsylvania. I am quite comfortable in the winter time with my window cracked open and often times have found a little snow on the sill in the morning.
I was under the impression that silk is a great insulator.
If this is so, how did the Japanese keep from roasting to death in hot humid weather?
I plan on my first layer being linen, which will help wick away moisture.
Habotai silk for successive layers.
Am I doomed to swelter, or am I missing something about silk?
Also, would hakama have been constructed of the same material as the kosode? If so, would they have been lined to give them more body?
Thanks,
Dafydd
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Jul 27, 2010 18:50:06 GMT -5
I was under the impression that silk is a great insulator. That would be why they make long underwear out of it. Sweat is period. So are hand fans. Even the most badass samurai carries a fan. There are also summer weaves/weights of silk, such as ro and sha (which you can't get unless you're buying kimono bolts). These are very fine and can be quite stiff. Stiff fabrics are favored for summer because they stand away from the body somewhat. One also wears fewer layers. The Japanese also had access to hemp, which linen is a reasonably substitute for. They may also have had access to cottons toward the end of our period. I favor linen as my innermost layer, though cotton will do. Habotai is, even in its heaviest weights, a very fine, drapy silk. (Think ladies' blouse weight). I would not recommend it for things like hakama, hitatare or kataginu. When I did my karaginu mo, I used habotai. I ended up lining all of the sleeves with cotton muslin dyed to match and treated with spray starch. If you look here, you can see that the green hitoe layer, which by definition is supposed to be unlined, looks like wilty lettuce squirting off an overstuffed sandwich with too much mayo. www.wodefordhall.com/kmocc26b.jpgThink about the difference between the weight of the fabric in a button down shirt vs. a pair of chinos. Go in your drawer and put your hands on them if you have to. There's nothing sadder than a pair of wimpy hakama. Go for a heavier weight fabric if you can. I've used silk dupioni, which is slubbier than ideal, but is heavier than habotai and a bit crisper. Then you don't have to muck around trying to line it. Mid to heavy weight linen can also work, but it loves to wrinkle. Go to the laundry aisle at the store and get yourself a big green can of Niagara Spray Starch. It's dynamite for turning limp fabric into something crisp that stands away from the body like it's supposed to. You can use it on cotton, linen, or silk. (BTW, the Japanese did use rice starch on their fabrics to similar effect.)
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Dafydd
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Purveyor of finely crafted historical pavilions.
Posts: 67
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Post by Dafydd on Jul 27, 2010 21:20:12 GMT -5
So if you were to use linen for a shitagi, would you still use habotai for a kosode or would you consider it too light?
I am picturing a dobuku over that.
I figure I can add more layers if I ever get cold. (I almost did for a little while at night during the Beltane event. It reminded me of home. :-) ).
Thanks for the advice,
Dafydd
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Jul 27, 2010 23:16:27 GMT -5
So if you were to use linen for a shitagi, would you still use habotai for a kosode or would you consider it too light? The closest thing to habotai that I've used in a very long time was a bolt of undyed kimono silk. It's very fine and drapy and I usually wear a linen layer beneath it, and an uchikake over it. It definitely needs interfacing in the collar, though. If you're in doubt about ordering fabrics online, ask about swatches. I know that Dharma Trading will sell you a swatch book that will allow you to compare the various silks they sell.
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Dafydd
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Purveyor of finely crafted historical pavilions.
Posts: 67
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Post by Dafydd on Jul 27, 2010 23:25:57 GMT -5
I made a raid on Exotic Silks today in Los Altos.
Probably will work on something new for Purgatorio. (sp?)
I bought interfacing tonight.
I also won some japanese kimono silk on ebay today which hopefully will be here in a couple of weeks.
Still shopping around for a steal on a bolt of white linen. (you can never have enough linen.)
I will post pics once I get something going.
Thanks for the help.
Dafydd
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bovil
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Fnord. Moo.
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Post by bovil on Jul 28, 2010 2:28:00 GMT -5
Also, would hakama have been constructed of the same material as the kosode? If so, would they have been lined to give them more body? Ah. The complicated questions... Remember, for pre-1600 styles, hakama over a kosode or two would be very, very casual and low-class. The modern equivalent would be running around in a wife-beater and slacks in an old-school corporate environment. So, no, the kosode and hakama would not likely be made of the same weight, color or even fiber, any more than your slacks and undershirt or dress shirts are. The kosode is your undershirt and your dress shirt (probably a white layer and a colored layer). Shitabakama (if I remember correctly) would be a short under-hakama (think the boxers of the hakama world). Over all that, you've got a suit. Hakama would be the equivalent to suit pants. A matching hitatare or a kataginu (the square style, not the foldy-wingy style) would be your suit jacket, if you're bushi. There's also the possibility of a non-matching dobuku, the utilitarian sport jacket of Japanese bushi fashion. But, except in extremely casual situations, there's always some sort of top to go with the kosode and hakama. If you're kuge, even a hitatare would be extremely casual. In the Heian period, it would be practically slumming, but from the Kamakura period on formal bushi styles were fashionable casual-wear for nobles.
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Post by Please Delete on Jul 28, 2010 5:56:03 GMT -5
Some more food for thought:
Most people would probably be wearing hemp or ramie, I believe--so linen is a good substitute. This includes the kosode and the hakama and hitatare.
Early fashions often had a linen "sweat garment" which would go between the skin and any silk to help soak up the sweat and oils from the body.
Hitatare and hakama are amazingly versatile--with layers you keep the core areas warm, and yet in the heat you can get a breeze going through so that it is like your own personal shade pavilion. It is almost like they lived in a place that was sometimes freezing cold and sometimes almost unbearably hot and humid*.
Silk really depends on the garment, but it is almost always stiff and gauzy, unless it is a patterned twill of some kind.
Not sure if that helps or not, but some things to consider.
-Ii *Okay, I live in Thailand now, so I should probably drop the "unbearably", but that's how it used to feel to me.
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Post by Ishida Kentarou Mitsumasa on Jul 28, 2010 18:42:48 GMT -5
By "most people", do you mean most people overall or most of the well-off people that by conceit we are trying to represent? My impression is that richer people would have favored some amount of silk somewhere, but I don't actually have any book I can point to that says that. The compromise I was implementing was to have a silk outer kosode and have the rest of my clothes be linen, but that may be wrong.
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Post by Please Delete on Jul 28, 2010 19:06:43 GMT -5
Sorry, yes.
I mean the buke. And the kuge would still have the asaginu or something similar on underneath all of their silk.
For dressing up, possibly silk, but even the Edo period kataginu kamishimo that people wore to see the shogun was hemp, at least whenever I've seen it.
Dobuku would probably be otherwise. I know that hitatare and hakama were sometimes made out of silk, but not necessarily all the time, and the costume museum usually shows buke (even high-ranking ones) in hemp cloth; it is just very nice hemp cloth.
-Ii
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bovil
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Post by bovil on Jul 28, 2010 19:59:10 GMT -5
Dobuku would probably be otherwise. Dobuku were, from what I've seen, garments of opulence. Silk would be appropriate, even opulent silk linings. I know that hitatare and hakama were sometimes made out of silk, but not necessarily all the time, and the costume museum usually shows buke (even high-ranking ones) in hemp cloth; it is just very nice hemp cloth. Daimon hitatare of the Heian and Kamakura periods were, IIRC, by definition hemp. Later period daimon hitatare (when they became more ceremonial in use) were sometimes silk. Suo hitatare were silk. It really does come down to period and class. While the cut of these garments really stayed consistent over 1,000 years, details could vary greatly.
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Post by solveig on Jul 28, 2010 22:22:01 GMT -5
Ii dono! Greetings from Solveig! It is almost like they lived in a place that was sometimes freezing cold and sometimes almost unbearably hot and humid*. *Okay, I live in Thailand now, so I should probably drop the "unbearably", but that's how it used to feel to me. The characterization is still apt, even if Thailand is even more unbearably hot and humid. During the Summer Japanese sleep on terry cloth sheets and walk around with towels mopping sweat off of themselves. Winter brings snowfall and hunkering down next to the kotatsu. And, I am writing about Tokyo.
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Post by yumehime on Aug 30, 2010 1:24:57 GMT -5
Silk has the advantage over synthetics of breath-ability, but using a base layer of cheaper fabrics like hemp seem more practical since sweat contains salt witch can damage silk fibers and not all silk garments were easy to wash.
I am sadly too poor to get silk most of the time and linen is also often cost prohibitive in my region, but I have found there are loads of cotton and cotton blends that can pass for a good linen and recently I have found polyesters that can pass for silk at a glance, though lack the stiffness needed to look right alone. I was able to compensate for this with a sheer poly that looked just like summer kimono silk by backing it with a sheer cotton that tended to hold shape well and got a good result. This may help keep cost down while allowing for a fancier looking top layer, though you probably want to stick with natural fibers near the skin.
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Dafydd
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Purveyor of finely crafted historical pavilions.
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Post by Dafydd on Sept 2, 2010 19:24:07 GMT -5
The name Dafydd in Japanese translates as Human Furnace.
I'm pretty sure I can't wear poly anything.
Luckily, I have this fabric addiction, and don't mind springing for linen even if it means skipping some meals or working extra shifts.
Also, I have found out that it gets cold enough in the bay area at events that i think i'll be able to get away with some silk, unlike my home town which is about an hour north of Pennsic and much more humid.
We recently bought a bolt of linen from fabrics-store.com for about $5/yd which is not much more than most cottons.
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