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Post by mrcunningham on May 22, 2008 14:49:00 GMT -5
You don't cover the whole helmet... that's why you paint it white. ...actually, I did cover the whole helmet. Check out the first page of the thread where I describe how I made mine, if you want. That said, lessons learned for me include: - Attach the thing firmly to the grill, possibly by gluing as allowed - Use thicker linen than I did, i.e.: something more than .5mm thick - Try not to catch any shots with it - If it gets in your face when you're fighting, DON'T STOP FIGHTING! Keep swinging and you just might win the day after all.
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Post by dianet on May 22, 2008 14:52:22 GMT -5
Hrmmm...
Spray on Adhesive? Would that work? Hehe, my roomie suggested VELCRO.. Also, and this is just an idea... make little loops of duct tape, sticky side out, and put them over the helmet, then put your fabric over the top. That way it's removable, yet stable at t he same time.
Just a few thoughts.
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spearweasel
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"See? That was nothing. But that's how it always begins. Very small."
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Post by spearweasel on May 23, 2008 9:38:57 GMT -5
You don't cover the whole helmet... that's why you paint it white. ...actually, I did cover the whole helmet. Check out the first page of the thread where I describe how I made mine, if you want. That said, lessons learned for me include: - Attach the thing firmly to the grill, possibly by gluing as allowed - Use thicker linen than I did, i.e.: something more than .5mm thick - Try not to catch any shots with it - If it gets in your face when you're fighting, DON'T STOP FIGHTING! Keep swinging and you just might win the day after all. ACK - FALSE UNDERSTANDING! Well, on re-examing the instructions for the umpteenth time, I think I get it. I'm gonna paint my helmet white anyway, for my summer western rig. That looks like a simple thing you made, and I'll see if I can get it to work.
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Post by mrcunningham on May 23, 2008 14:06:46 GMT -5
Couple of rectangles - couldn't get much simpler.
Of course, the kami will require pictures when y'all are done.
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spearweasel
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"See? That was nothing. But that's how it always begins. Very small."
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Post by spearweasel on Jun 12, 2008 17:51:19 GMT -5
Couple of rectangles - couldn't get much simpler. Of course, the kami will require pictures when y'all are done. OK, the bascinet is now officially painted white. I don't have to tell you how odd that looks with my rig. I purchased two yards of bleached white muslin, and tried out the assembly. It does indeed look very sohei, when posing in the hall mirror. If it unsettles my foes as much as it unsettled the kitties, so much the better. There are still a few particulars to work out, such as getting all the pieces to stay in place, and I think my piece of muslin is far too long. It is 72", so I''ll definitely need to trim it down to about 60". I like a little more swoosh in my kato no kesa than you have, Cunningham-dono. It is also pretty thin muslin. I'll see how that works out, and go from there. It is definitely going to be a work in progress, but I'll keep you posted. Pictures will have to wait until I have it all together looking purty.
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Post by mrcunningham on Jun 13, 2008 7:49:16 GMT -5
As for fasteners, I used white zip ties to hold it on the grill, and white lace to keep it down on the back of the helmet. I still can't see either in any of the photos. Good luck and keep us posted!
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Post by dunnerstick on Sept 13, 2017 8:17:17 GMT -5
The BIG question though is does the Kato no Kesa require a helmet to function? I've seen a couple examples w.o them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2017 9:08:30 GMT -5
The BIG question though is does the Kato no Kesa require a helmet to function? No, but the helmet is required for SCA heavy combat. Using fabric to disguise a non-Japanese SCA-legal helm is a lot easier and usually cheaper than acquiring or building an SCA-legal kabuto. If you're wearing it for costuming only, or for a combat style that does not require full head and face protectiong, you can probably tie the fabric directly to your head.
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Post by dunnerstick on Sept 13, 2017 15:14:40 GMT -5
The BIG question though is does the Kato no Kesa require a helmet to function? No, but the helmet is required for SCA heavy combat. Using fabric to disguise a non-Japanese SCA-legal helm is a lot easier and usually cheaper than acquiring or building an SCA-legal kabuto. If you're wearing it for costuming only, or for a combat style that does not require full head and face protectiong, you can probably tie the fabric directly to your head. I have no idea as to what "SCA" is. I'll take a guess and say "Samurai Combat Arena". It looks REALLY brutal though. The reason I'm interested in it is because I was looking for a non-scarf headdress for inclement weather. Of course my interest is deeper than that as I am in my early stages of studying Buddhism and have a rather strong interest in Japanese cultural, it's really the only culture of the entire continent of Asia to catch my interest for numerous reasons, though I wont list them. I feel as an American that it would be a travesty to just adopt some common, and seemingly uncultural, scarf when there's a world of cultures and styles to experience some, like the "Kesa", with an inspiring history. I had first learned of Buddhist warrior monks (Sohei) from Shogun 2 oddly enough and having little interest in Middle Eastern culture I really didnt want to utilize a Shemagh either, the internet is littered with those by the way. I figured I could find one for purchase or even a "how-to" article yet my results were limited which is really upsetting. I never expected to find that information here, but I'm really glad I did. All that being said I'm interested in attempting to replicate the dress with as much historical accuracy as my wallet can afford. I need to figure out what fabric was most common and the like which, again, is very hard to come by, a travesty.
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Post by dunnerstick on Sept 13, 2017 15:15:31 GMT -5
Japanese culture**
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 7:23:14 GMT -5
I have no idea as to what "SCA" is. I'll take a guess and say "Samurai Combat Arena". It looks REALLY brutal though. SCA stands for the "Society for Creative Anachronism" ( www.sca.org/ ). The SCA is a group dedicated to researching and re-creating pre-1600 historical culture. It's not exclusively combat oriented, but martial activities are a large and popular part of the SCA. There are rules governing the fighting, so it's not as brutal as you might think, but it is full contact. The SCA is also not exclusively Japanese. Most people explore European cultures, but there is a strong contingent of us who focus on Japan. This forum is also not exclusively SCA, so I hope you don't feel unwelcome. Tousando is centered on historical Japanese culture, we'll chip in with what we know. There are not as many people here as there used to be, but we will help where we can. It seems like you have some things you can help us with as well, so I hope you stick around. For most garments of this type, they seem to have used fabrics like hemp and ramie. Linen from flax is a good substitute, but even that is getting more difficult to find in stores. You'll need to go online, probably. They did have cotton fabric back then, but it was uncommon and expensive, so it seems unlikely for your purposes.
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Sept 14, 2017 12:23:51 GMT -5
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Post by dunnerstick on Sept 14, 2017 14:33:44 GMT -5
That's pretty awesome! I've been looking for something like that, old school re-enactments. I'm interested in learning Jujutsu but I'm not sure where to look in my area, as I have so far I cant find anything.
On another note that information was/is VERY helpful, so thank you! I think I'll go with Ramie as it seems more like the color I'm going for... But I do LOVE Hemp. Now I just need to find out how to wrap it without the inclusion of a helmet.
I'll teach whatever I can about Buddhism but I cant say a whole lot about how it functioned in specific regions like Japan where it seems to have had a very complex existence, maybe more so than anywhere else. Most interesting, in my opinion, were the Ikko-Ikki. Even still my knowledge is limited xP
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Post by solveig on Sept 24, 2017 16:12:29 GMT -5
According to a lecture which I once attended, kesa are supposed to be pieced together from used toilet rags. As for Buddhism in general. It is a huge more or less religious movement with arguably three major branches. Japanese Buddhism is pretty much different flavors (some invented in Japan) of Mahayana (large vehicle) Buddhism. I recommend reading Shapers of Japanese Buddhism and Religion in Japanese History.
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Post by Ki no Kotori on Nov 5, 2017 14:27:10 GMT -5
Sorry, haven't been on the Tousando board in a while. Foxeholly is my site, and yes, from what I have been able to figure out, kato no kesa are literally kesa worn on the head. The sōhei wore their kesa on their heads rather than on the torso as usual (perhaps for freedom of movement? or disguise?). So yes, as a shortcut you could just use a rectangular cloth tied around your head, but properly, those were kesa, which are sewn in a particular way. Most commonly, the "rice-paddy" pattern is used.
Gojokesa 五条袈裟 or Gojo no kesa 五条の袈裟 is also a term for this garment. From the dictionary definition, it was called that because of it was stitched together from five wide cloths (probably referring to the rice paddy design, which is usually done in five rows, but can be seven or nine, depending on the cloth used and the size of the wearer.
I found a cite for why they used discarded cloth:
"It is difficult to determine what is good and what is evil. Laymen say it is good to wear luxurious silks, embroidered garments, and brocades; and bad to wear tattered and discarded rags. But in Buddhism it is the opposite: tattered robes are good and pure, richly embroidered garments are evil and soiled. The same applies to all other things as well.
The Madhyam-agama-sutra states, “Virtuous men! Suppose that someone acts purely but speaks and things impurely. If a wise man sees this and becomes angry, it is necessary for him to eliminate his anger. Suppose again that someone acts impurely but speaks and thinks purely. If a wise man sees this and becomes angry, it is necessary for him to eliminate his anger. How can he do this? Virtuous men! He can do so by following in the footsteps of a solitary monk who picks up discarded cloth to make himself a pãmsula. Like the monk, if he finds the cloth soiled with excreta, urine, nasal mucus or anything else impure, he should pick it up with his left hand and, stretching it out with his right hand, tear off the unsoiled and holeless parts."
Yuho Yokoi. Zen Master Dogen (NY, Tokyo: Weatherhill, 1976)pp. 104-105.
As for wearing kesa on the head, it may also have been part of a religious ritual:
"Do-gen Zenji, at the age of twenty-five, was at Tien-tung-shan in China, doing zazen with many monks, when at the end of morning zazen he saw that a monk who sat next to him held up the okesa with both hands, put it on his head, and with gassho recited the verse of the okesa:
Great robe of liberation! Virtuous field far beyond form and emptiness Wearing the Tathagata’s teaching We vow to save all beings.
After the monk chanted this verse three times he put on the okesa. Do-gen Zenji had never seen this great practice before; he was deeply impressed and even shed tears from a mingled feeling of joy and sorrow.
He talks about this in the last part of the “Kesakudoku,” saying that his robe’s collar was wet from the tears.
"When I was in Japan I read the Ãgama-sutras and found the verse of the kesa; I also found that before one puts on the kesa they should put it on their head. I had not known when and how it correctly was to be done as I had asked my master and friends but none of them knew. I felt very sorrowful that such a long span of time had passed wastefully without knowing how to handle a kesa in spite of having been at Hieizan for three years and at Kenninji for nine years. Now, I fortunately could see and hear with my own eyes and ears the manner in which to wear the kesa due to good deeds accumulated in previous existences. I was grateful and thankful. If I had stayed in Japan, I would not have had a chance to see this great scene. I took pity upon the people in my country because they could not see it"
Eihei Dogen Zenji, Shobogenzo - “Kesakudoku” (The Merit of Kas´ãya); Shobogenzo -“Den-ne” (The transmission of the Robe), trans. Yuho Yokoi with Daizen, Victoria.(Weatherhill, 1976). The Dogen Zenji mentioned is the monk Dogen (1200-1253), founder of the Sōtō school of Zen Buddhism.
What I'm trying to research now is how the construction of the kesa may have changed over time. There are instructions online in English for making kesa (some quite extensive), but as they are concerned with modern religious Buddhist practice, they don't really go into how the kesa might have evolved. We know that not all kesa were made from toilet rags--some extant pieces are quite fine, and may have been made with donated brocade. These are often seen being worn by wealthy lay-people. Both monks and lay-people (who had taken partial vows) were encouraged to wear kesa as a sign of devotion.
I dunno, just scratched the surface on what is a very rich tradition. It should go without saying--if you want to wear kato no kesa as part of your persona, please remember that it is still part of an ongoing religious tradition, and treat the garment with respect.
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