Dobuku madness...

[bovil]

I'm trying to make sense of dobuku from the pictures I've seen and the notes I've found in searches.

• A dobuku is basically a lined over-kosode, between waist-length and knee-length.
  
• The body of a dobuku is 2 panels wide.
  
• The front of a dobuku does not have okumi (overlaps).
  
• The collar of a dobuku may be of contrasting (or lining) material.
  
• A dobuku has sleeves that are fully attached to the body.
  
• A dobuku has sleeves that are closed in standard kosode fashion.
  
• A dobuku may have sleeves that are fully open instead of closed.
  
• A dobuku may have sleeves that are only 1/2 panel wide (long).
  
• A dobuku may be assembled to show flashes of lining at the cuffs and collar.
  

Am I going in the right direction here?

[Saionji Shonagon]

Andy-dono,

Have you seen this one in the Tokyo National Museum collection? (Can I just say that I love that they show multiple views of art and artifacts on their website?)
It's a nice example of a 16th century dobuku with open ended sleeves which show the contrasting lining, as well as a contrast collar.



This one from the Kyoto National Museum collection shows the "kosode" sleeve shape, by which I mean it's curved and closed part way up the open edge.

Re sleeve width, both kosode and dobuku of this period had sleeves that were narrower than a full panel width.

I freely admit that the sleeve width = body panel width arrangement that many of us use is derived from modern kimono construction. It's just plain EASIER to take a wingspan measurement, divide it by 4 and add back one inch to honor the Hebrew God Whose Ark This Is. I do have one sketched out on graph paper on my web page showing the correct proportions if you're up to doing the math to come up with something more correct that will fit your measurements.

[AJBryant]

makiwara said:

It's just plain EASIER to take a wingspan measurement, divide it by 4 and add back one inch to honor the Hebrew God Whose Ark This Is.

I love you.


Effingham

[seven7]

makiwara said:

It's just plain EASIER to take a wingspan measurement, divide it by 4 and add back one inch to honor the Hebrew God Whose Ark This Is.

;D ;D ;D

On another, slightly related note, I kinda like that third material design. Though if I may say so, it seems to be abit modern. Though this is probrably a testament to how well it was put together, the design most-likely having been acheaved through cleaver dies, as opposed to modern machinery.

Ignore my rambling, carry on.

-Seven7-

[Saionji Shonagon]

seven7 said:

On another, slightly related note, I kinda like that third material design.

Me too. I shamelessly borrowed the arrow motif for the hem of one of my creations. www.wodefordhall.com/fakingit.htm

To answer your ramblings, yes, it would have been all hand dyed. Here's the description from the Kyoto National Museum site:
www.kyohaku.go.jp/eng/syuzou/meihin/senshoku/item02.html

The tsujigahana technique was also used to decorate the other dobuku I posted pics of.

Definition of tsujigahana from Kosode 16th -19th Century Textiles from the Nomura Collection by Amanda Meyer Stinchcum (New York: Japan Society and Kodansha International, 1984)
TSUJIGAHANA: A combination of decorative techniques, also the fabrics and designs thus produced, which flourished from the late Muromachi through the Momoyama periods. Always included shibori, often supplemented by freehand painting (kaki-e), gold or silver leaf (surihaku) and embroidery (nui).

[bovil]

makiwara said:

I freely admit that the sleeve width = body panel width arrangement that many of us use is derived from modern kimono construction. It's just plain EASIER to take a wingspan measurement, divide it by 4 and add back one inch to honor the Hebrew God Whose Ark This Is. I do have one sketched out on graph paper on my web page showing the correct proportions if you're up to doing the math to come up with something more correct that will fit your measurements.

So we're back to my needing a basic general assumption confirmed or corrected:

The body of a men's tarikubi-neck (kimono style) garment is two panels wide, with drop shoulders that should drop the top of the armsceye (sleeve) seam to 1/3 down the upper arm from the shoulder.

Is that correct?

[Saionji Shonagon]

bovil said:

The body of a men's tarikubi-neck (kimono style) garment is two panels wide, with drop shoulders that should drop the top of the armsceye (sleeve) seam to 1/3 down the upper arm from the shoulder.
Is that correct?

Yes. Or thereabouts give or take based on the size of the wearer. I return you to one of my favorite 16th century paintings which shows good details on sleeves and even back seams on figures in active poses: www.tnm.go.jp/.../search/images/max/C0022475.jpg

In some of these, the sleeve seam is practically down to the elbow.

[bovil]

makiwara said:

Yes. Or thereabouts give or take based on the size of the wearer. I return you to one of my favorite 16th century paintings which shows good details on sleeves and even back seams on figures in active poses: www.tnm.go.jp/.../search/images/max/C0022475.jpg

Pardon me, but your link is busted...

[bovil]

seven7 said:

Though this is probrably a testament to how well it was put together, the design most-likely having been acheaved through cleaver dies, as opposed to modern machinery.

If you look at the close-up detail photo it clearly shows wrinkles created during the tie-dye process.

Yes, it really is a very sophisticated form of tie-dye.

[Saionji Shonagon]

Oh poo!

Try this one: www.tnm.go.jp/gallery/search/images/max/C0022467.jpg

If all else fails, go to www.tnm.go.jp/en/servlet/Con?processId=00&ref=2&Q1=&Q2=&Q3=&Q4=11%5B34%5D_____4181_&Q5=&F1=&F2=&pageId=E15&colid=A11090

[bovil]

makiwara said:

Oh poo!

Try this one: www.tnm.go.jp/gallery/search/images/max/C0022467.jpg

That worked!

[oravainen]

I was just wondering, that it is possible to have a cleavage at the back seam (I mean that the body panels wouldn't be sewn together near the hem) of the dôbuku?
That would make sense to me, atleast if the coat is a tad to the longer side, as it would ease wearing the sword/-s as they wouldn't raise the whole hem but rather raise a bit the panel of their side an slip through the cleavage.
Ill' be making a dôbuku as soon as I get all my more pressing issues (to wich I should be attending even now) to cover up the fact that I made the panels for my first kosode a bit too narrow (14 inches... Well okay, I messed the whole thing up completely but who cares, There's nobody around that would know to tell me that my panels are too narrow [/offtopic])

[Please Delete]

I'm pretty sure I've seen that, but I'd need to confirm wit sources at home. Still, I seem to recall that some of the more sedate qualities of jinbaori are occasionally used for dobuku (that being one of them).


-Ii