erink
New Member
Posts: 71
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Post by erink on Dec 11, 2008 11:40:57 GMT -5
The lantern basket reminds me that I saw modern geisha types (not sure whether they were maiko or cosplayers!) in Kyoto carrying little basket purses. As I recall, the baskets had a wicker top and hard bottom and either upholstery-type or crocheted fabric between. They tended to collapse down on themselves if held by the bottom.
Of course, almost everything you see on a geisha is post-period for SCA purposes, but if you are just looking for something that's not jarringly wrong, you might look into these.
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Post by Suzume on Dec 17, 2008 22:00:39 GMT -5
They are called kinchaku..I found a link to some.. www.kyotobreeze.net/200/0208kinchaku_bags/I can't help but wonder when they first appeared..there were always baskets and fabric, as far as I know! Who the genius was who put them together in this way is only to be speculated on.. Actually I just bought a small japaneseish looking basket to make into a "backpack" type thing...I just saw the basket sitting there at TJ Maxx and it begged me. I'll post pics if/when I finish it..probably in the next couple months. The Fu lantern is really cute!! I might have to get that pattern..now that I can knit a few stitches.. ;D
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Post by solveig on Dec 18, 2008 0:17:34 GMT -5
Noble Cousin!
Greetings from Solveig! Unfortunately, the web page you found slightly misrepresents 巾着 kinchaku or at least the word kinchaku. The word does not necessarily refer to a basket/cloth hybrid. Kodansha Kogojiten gives "money purse" (my translation) as the primary meaning. The accompanying illustration shows an item which appears to have no basketry components. Incidentally, 巾着切り kinchakukiri both literally and figuratively means "cutpurse". Basically, a thief.
Regardless, the word itself is comparatively modern. The earliest citations for the word appear to date to the Edo period. For example, one of the citations is to a kyogen text. The earliest collections of kyogen texts only date to the early Edo period. The other citation is to a comparatively modern poetic form.
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Post by Ki no Kotori on Dec 18, 2008 16:33:13 GMT -5
Noble Cousin! Kodansha Kogojiten gives "money purse" (my translation) as the primary meaning. The accompanying illustration shows an item which appears to have no basketry components. Where did you get "money" from? That "kin" 巾 means cloth, not 金 "kin/kane" as in money? My dictionary (Nelson) says just purse.
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Post by Suzume on Dec 18, 2008 20:57:54 GMT -5
Well...I was just sayin', if one did a search for the word "Kinchaku" for visual inspiration, you might find something. ;)Thats what people are peddling it as these days.
I know that the meanings of many japanese words and phrases have changed so much over time that the old meaning is pretty much irrelevant now and modern japanese speakers can't make sense of it. I'm sure this is one of those cases!
But I have a hard time believing that kinchaku is a strictly modern invention(sayin' 1800's?), considering the components. How far back it would go I have no clue...I'd love to find out!
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Post by solveig on Dec 18, 2008 21:45:09 GMT -5
Noble Cousin!
Greetings from Solveig! Please reread my posting. I was quoting a definition from a 古語辞典 kogojiten, not analyzing the component kanji. As I recall, the kogojiten that I cited says that it is a money purse.
Please consider ditching Nelson and using Japanese dictionaries instead.
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Post by solveig on Dec 18, 2008 22:08:36 GMT -5
Noble Cousin!
Greetings from Solveig! However, there is no good reason to believe that the item in question is particularly old. Lots of cultures had both baskets and cloth bags, but do not appear to have come up with this particular design. I'm not even convinced that it would have been particularly useful until the Edo period. Lots of things that we now think of as being typically Japanese weren't even invented until either the Muromachi period or the Edo period.
That doesn't mean that you can't go off and acquire and use the things. I just wish that you wouldn't until you come up with some solid documentation for the things prior to 1601.
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Post by Please Delete on Dec 18, 2008 23:34:13 GMT -5
Please consider ditching Nelson and using Japanese dictionaries instead. Solveig-hime, that is unfair. For many people, Nelson's is a fine resource to translate kanji into English. Yes, a kogojiten is likely to be more accurate, but I don't think you need to berate someone for using Nelson's (you may not have meant to, but your post comes across as a bit harsh). That said, dictionary.goo.ne.jp verifies the definition specifically as a money purse: Ki-hime is correct that there is no 'kane' radical in there, but I think that the size and shape are what determine this to be a coin purse, as Solveig pointed out (though the punning on 'kin' should not be overlooked, imho). I suggest people look up images on Google using the kanji and you'll get quite a few different pouches. Some of them look like simple drawstring bags that remind of items going back to the Nara period (though usually with obviously modern fabric). I would not think a simple drawstring bag would be all that anachronistic, and could be readily justified. The ones linked... I find those to be very striking and would not expect to find them in our period of study (though I'd be happy for someone to prove me wrong). -Ii Katsumori
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Post by solveig on Dec 19, 2008 11:33:26 GMT -5
Ii dono! Greetings from Solveig! Please consider ditching Nelson and using Japanese dictionaries instead. Solveig-hime, that is unfair. For many people, Nelson's is a fine resource to translate kanji into English. No. It is not unfair. We were pretty much required to ditch Nelson and Japanese-English dictionaries in general at ICU. I really did try to not come across as "berating". I wrote "please consider". The fact is that while English resources are fine resources for beginners and are occasionally useful later on, the simple fact is that Japanese dictionaries are better. Please also remember that this fellow started out by whacking my earlier posting with his copy of Nelson. I too have a copy of Nelson, but I'm not even sure where it is at the moment. I pretty much haven't used it for years now. The drawing in the Kanwajiten which I was referring to was pretty much a draw string bag. Incidentally, one of the reasons that I have been posting kanji aka "chicken tracks" is so people can plug them into google and find images for themselves. Finally, Nelson attempts to be a Kan-Ei (Sino-Japanese charcter to English) dictionary. Nelson was not attempting to document premodern Japanese. He was simply trying to put together the equivalent of a kanwajiten (Sino-Japanese character to Japanese dictionary) for English speakers. Japanese High School students are required to study classical Japanese. Kogojiten are compiled and sold for this market. A typical Kogojiten will include the oldest known literary quotation using the word in question. They also have appendices explaining various archaic things such as the organizational structure of the Heian government.
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Post by Please Delete on Dec 19, 2008 17:21:40 GMT -5
No. It is not unfair. We were pretty much required to ditch Nelson and Japanese-English dictionaries in general at ICU. Nobody here is expected to read Japanese, though. If people can read Japanese well enough to use a kogojiten, then great. In my university classes and in Japan, Nelson's was considered just fine. You are correct, though, it is not focused on the old words. I also understand your frustration--my initial reading of Ki no Kotori's post was a little blunt, but I took some time to re-read the post. It simply asked a question: Your initial answer was sufficient to explain this to her: You then added the following: This was in addition to the information requested, and comes across, at least to me, as the type of challenge used in academic political circles to "test" a person as to whether or not they have the academic background to challenge your authority on the subject. It assumes that the person has a certain level of knowledge (in this case, understands Japanese well enough that a kogojiten would be of use), and if they don't, well, they have no room to criticize since they obviously can't use the superior sources you can. This can come across, especially on a forum like this, as academic bullying. And here's the final part... though you claim you did not mean to come across as berating, nowhere in here do you attempt to apologize if you did so. Rather, you start by defending your position and then attack the other person. I don't see how that helps the debate. I only mention this because I have seen it multiple times. I don't believe you mean ill, but neither do I believe that an apology would be too horrible, either. This is meant to be a place where we encourage each other to do better, not just show when people are wrong. As for apologies: I'm sorry I've taken this thread so far off course. I'll try to respond further in PMs. Furthermore, Solveig, I genuinely like you as a person and for your positive contributions to Japanese personas in the SCA. I just don't want to see others chased away or discouraged by the way you sometimes seem to present yourself in electronic correspondence. -Ii Katsumori
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Post by solveig on Dec 19, 2008 19:23:59 GMT -5
Ii dono! Greetings from Solveig! This was in addition to the information requested, and comes across, at least to me, as the type of challenge used in academic political circles to "test" a person as to whether or not they have the academic background to challenge your authority on the subject. Oh dear! Not at all. Actually, my feelings were if anything the opposite of what you are interpreting. I felt that the first part of the posting was the more challenging. Nobody that I know who has gone to the effort and expense of acquiring a copy of Nelson's is an intentional slouch. Rather, I am saying that if you are going to go to the work of trying to manually decode Japanese, then you should make the big jump to using Japanese resources sooner rather than later. I'm the one one here who flunked French and flunked German several times. And that is really where the analysis should stop. My roommate at my first Summer at ICU who was taking intensive third year complained bitterly about one of her professors who gave her the impression that he believed that none of his students could ever possibly become proficient at Japanese studies. Incidentally, she also talked about how folks had struggled to be quick at looking things up in Nelson back at UCLA (if I recall the school correctly). So, I am familiar with the syndrome, and I am sorry to hear that you have probably personally encountered it. Yes, I am reading something into your posting. When I tried to sign up for second year Japanese at Georgetown University after completing intensive second year during the Summer at ICU, the Japanese professor at Georgetown would not even consider letting me in to her class. Incidentally, I took first year at Harvard. So, I signed up for second year Japanese at George Washington University to discover that they were just beginning to study what we had covered during Spring semester at Harvard. There was also a Mormon kid in the class who had done his mission in Japan. Our presence bothered the other students, so I switched to SAIS (Johns Hopkins University). Basically, Nelson really is not designed to do what was being attempted. Kogojiten are. Yes, you do have to get over a hump to start using Japanese resources, but I believe that the payoff would be worth it. Ii dono! You ARE berating me, in case you didn't notice it. I felt like I was being whacked by Ki no Kotori who cited Nelson after I had posted about what was in Kodansha Kogojiten! If I recall correctly, this is the Kogojiten that my professor of Classical Japanese had us get. Have I demanded an apology from either of you? Further, I really do not believe that I have "attacked" the person in question. Either in my direct response or in my discussions with you. And all that business about kogojiten was about was trying to tell the person in question how to do better. Remember, they trotted out Nelson to say that I was wrong. They obviously did not understand why a kogojiten is a much better resource than Nelson. I then explained that kogojiten are designed to be better resources than Nelson for this sort of thing. I concluded by asking them to "consider" (I believe that is a direct quote) learning to use Japanese resources.
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Post by Ki no Kotori on Dec 19, 2008 21:36:55 GMT -5
Solveig, my question was a simple question. You had stated that money purse was "your translation" and I was simply asking where you got the "money" part from. It was not an attack, simply a question. I quoted Nelson because I always state where I get my information from.
I feel your response, both to myself and to Ii-dono, was somewhat defensive and the comment about "ditching Nelson" came over as rather snide. I didn't say anything because Ii-dono said pretty much what I felt and I don't like drama.
If my question seemed offensive to you, I apologize. That I did question, well, I don't feel I did anything wrong in doing that.
This is all I have to say about the matter. Let us please set this aside and move on.
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Post by Suzume on Dec 19, 2008 22:00:31 GMT -5
Hugs everyone! HUGS! I'm feeling proud to be on a board where people express themselves so well, and so honestly. I like a spirited debate! This board is a great resource! I'm now very curious as to the history of the "kinchaku". I understand the point that it might be a strictly modern invention, but I just have to wonder, as perhaps there was some enterprising out-of -the-box(or basket, if you will, HA! Please excuse me I had a long day..) thinker who put fabric to basket and came up with this little purse. And yes, I agree that the drawstring closure would be more likely than the slick "handles" mounted on the basket. But really, its a great idea. it's lightweight, and you can put your stuff in it and it won't fly out the top! I kind of thought that Japanese clothing was so voluminous and flowing that you could carry whatever you needed in your sleeves. ;D
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bovil
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Fnord. Moo.
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Post by bovil on Dec 19, 2008 23:20:58 GMT -5
I kind of thought that Japanese clothing was so voluminous and flowing that you could carry whatever you needed in your sleeves. Well, except ladies clothes don't have sleeves that form useful pockets. Lift your arms, and everything that's in your kosode sleeves falls out the back.
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Dec 20, 2008 0:29:20 GMT -5
I kind of thought that Japanese clothing was so voluminous and flowing that you could carry whatever you needed in your sleeves. ;D Spoken Written like one who has never dropped "whatever you needed" all over the floor. Been there, done that - precisely once. Down the front of your kosode is a bit more secure - you can't really tuck much into a pre-17th century obi, but then, all a lady of rank should have to carry is her fan. BTW, back to the inro issue for the men on the list: I just found a very pretty 16th century example in the British Museum collection: -4.aspx" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/asia/l/lacquer_inr%C5%-4.aspx
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