Tsutsumi Do color ?

[Chukissaki]

I am looking into the Tsutsumi do. All I have seen in the few examples I can find is a medium brown color. Any evidece for any other colors ?

[worldantiques]

Tsutsumi / tsuzumi hara-ate dou.

[Chukissaki]

Wow that's nice. What is that ,silk ?

[worldantiques]

I have not idea, its the only one of its kind that I have seen, it looks like some kind of cotton type cloth.

[Please Delete]

There are at least two types of tsutsumi do: kawa-tsutsumi and nuno-tsutsumi. The first is leather and the second is silk. The silk I've seen was white in black and white photograph, though I believe I've also seen reference of green and I suspect just about any color would work.

FWIW, this one seems a bit odd... normally I notice that all of the lames are covered by a single piece, except for the iron parts, like the munaita, etc. Even the kusazuri seem to be covered from the same piece of silk or leather.*

Ifs this an Edo or later piece? That would be my assumption.

Ii

*Okay, so "same piece" is an exaggeration, but at least all the pieces were sewn together, on the examples I'm thinking of.

[worldantiques]

Jan 19, 2014 0:04:36 GMT -5 Please Delete said:

There are at least two types of tsutsumi do: kawa-tsutsumi and nuno-tsutsumi. The first is leather and the second is silk. The silk I've seen was white in black and white photograph, though I believe I've also seen reference of green and I suspect just about any color would work.

FWIW, this one seems a bit odd... normally I notice that all of the lames are covered by a single piece, except for the iron parts, like the munaita, etc. Even the kusazuri seem to be covered from the same piece of silk or leather.*

Ifs this an Edo or later piece? That would be my assumption.

Ii

*Okay, so "same piece" is an exaggeration, but at least all the pieces were sewn together, on the examples I'm thinking of.

"Tsutsumi / tsuzumi" is a descriptive term that means the armor plates on the dou / do are wrapped with leather or cloth, there is really no set rules. On this particular example the maker chose to use this style, a hara-ate dou. I am assuming that it is late Edo period.


Nerigawa kuwa-tsutsumi ni-mai dou gusoku with sode



Nishiki tsutsumi karuta gane tatami dou



Kawa-tsutsumi nerigawa kuro urushi maru-dou gusoku


Tetsu Kuro Shiwagawa Tsutsumi Hotoke Dou Gusoku.



Kawa tsutsumi gusoku, Tokyo Fuji Art Museum.

[Please Delete]

Interesting... I never really thought of the domaru with the leather on the front as a "tsutsumi", but it makes sense.

The classic examples of period tsutsumi dou I'd always seen were the full wrap of the armor, though that nishiki example seems familiar. Back to the books to look for more!


Ii

[Chukissaki]

Very nice. I hadnt seen those types before.

[Please Delete]

So, further digging--there appear to be some rules for an armor to be considered "Tsutsumi" (包). First, the leather or covering is unlacquered--that is part of what was confusing me, before, because it is not uncommon to use leather to hold the plates together, but then it is often hidden under the lacquer. Second, it seems that there are two different types of "tsutsumi" that appear to be undifferentiated in the descriptions: Either the lames are laced to the leather or fabric (e.g. the nishiki tsutsumi karuta gane above or the one on Sengoku Daimyo, shown below), which helps to hold it together, or else the leather of fabric is wrapped around each lame.



I'm not sure, based on that, that the leather added on o-yoroi (as well as some doumaru) to keep the bowstring from catching, the tsurubashiri, would count as "tsutsumi", as the attachment of it is much more like a separate piece entirely, riveted on along the edges. I wonder if this wasn't to allow it to be replaced, if necessary, without taking apart the entire suit, but that is complete conjecture at the moment. I didn't see that the Tokyo Fuji Art Museum called that last one a "革包", but rather "本小札紫裾濃威鎧" (hon-kozane murasaki susogo odoshi yoroi - An armor of hon-kozane construction with purple susogo lacing). Do you know if there is a further description that calls it "tsutsumi"? I would be interested in finding out why they are saying that about that particular piece.

BTW, do you have dates for the armors you posted? I'm wondering what the prevalence was pre-Edo for the various kinds of construction. I know we have the one that is covered in bear fur (I always think of it as a "gorilla" suit, though the Japanese would not have been considering that at the time), and because of how fragile the material is, much of the material would likely have decayed over the years, much as many of the tsurubashiri are only extant in fragments, or you can see the rivets and possibly a line of leather at the attachment points, but that is it.


-Ii Katsumori

[worldantiques]

Jan 21, 2014 9:27:35 GMT -5 Please Delete said:

So, further digging--there appear to be some rules for an armor to be considered "Tsutsumi" (包). First, the leather or covering is unlacquered--that is part of what was confusing me, before, because it is not uncommon to use leather to hold the plates together, but then it is often hidden under the lacquer. Second, it seems that there are two different types of "tsutsumi" that appear to be undifferentiated in the descriptions: Either the lames are laced to the leather or fabric (e.g. the nishiki tsutsumi karuta gane above or the one on Sengoku Daimyo, shown below), which helps to hold it together, or else the leather of fabric is wrapped around each lame.



I'm not sure, based on that, that the leather added on o-yoroi (as well as some doumaru) to keep the bowstring from catching, the tsurubashiri, would count as "tsutsumi", as the attachment of it is much more like a separate piece entirely, riveted on along the edges. I wonder if this wasn't to allow it to be replaced, if necessary, without taking apart the entire suit, but that is complete conjecture at the moment. I didn't see that the Tokyo Fuji Art Museum called that last one a "革包", but rather "本小札紫裾濃威鎧" (hon-kozane murasaki susogo odoshi yoroi - An armor of hon-kozane construction with purple susogo lacing). Do you know if there is a further description that calls it "tsutsumi"? I would be interested in finding out why they are saying that about that particular piece.

BTW, do you have dates for the armors you posted? I'm wondering what the prevalence was pre-Edo for the various kinds of construction. I know we have the one that is covered in bear fur (I always think of it as a "gorilla" suit, though the Japanese would not have been considering that at the time), and because of how fragile the material is, much of the material would likely have decayed over the years, much as many of the tsurubashiri are only extant in fragments, or you can see the rivets and possibly a line of leather at the attachment points, but that is it.


-Ii Katsumori

Here is Anthony's description, as you can see even the spelling is not agreed on between Japanese armor authorities.

Tsuzumi Dô

This armour is the Japanese equivalent of the famed coat-of-plates. The typical term is kawazutsumi dô, as they’re usually wrapped in leather, although samples enclosed by fabric (notably layers of heavy silk) are also extant. They were of kozane construction, but for SCA combat they could just as easily be made of solid lames. The lames (of scale or solid construction) are overlaid with leather or fabric, and rows of cross-lacing serve to secure the leather to the plates.

Different Japanese armor authorities use different criteria when categorizing what is and is not a tsutsumi / tsuzumi armor.

Here is the description on the 0-yoroi from the English version of the Tokyo Fuji Museum site, they do not even mention that it is an o-yoroi but the museum itself does not use the term "tsutsumi" to describe it either. As you say it may not fall into the category of tsutsumi / tsuzumi armor.

Suit of Armor in Purple Susogo Laced Style
Middle Edo Period
Lacquered iron, leather, silk

www.fujibi.or.jp/en/our-collection/profile-of-works.html?work_id=857

The first three armors (two leather and the silk covered one) were from Trevor (Toraba) and those are his descriptions, the hotoke dou and its description are from a well know Japanese dealer (kinokuniya) all of them are Edo period. There are just not many images of this type of armor available from any time period and as you mention, the older ones may not have their leather / cloth coverings intact. Silk can have a very short life span due the dyes used and leather has its own issues.

[Kurodachi no Mykaru]

The Tsutsumi on Tony's site is covered with fusubegawa. The reddish brown appearance is from the smoking process. It is the most common. Less smoke leads to a more straw colored leather. I also know of a fusubegawa dobuku that is greenish (probably pine needle smoke).

[Please Delete]

Jan 21, 2014 18:30:56 GMT -5 worldantiques said:

Here is Anthony's description, as you can see even the spelling is not agreed on between Japanese armor authorities.

Tsuzumi Dô

This armour is the Japanese equivalent of the famed coat-of-plates. The typical term is kawazutsumi dô, as they’re usually wrapped in leather, although samples enclosed by fabric (notably layers of heavy silk) are also extant. They were of kozane construction, but for SCA combat they could just as easily be made of solid lames. The lames (of scale or solid construction) are overlaid with leather or fabric, and rows of cross-lacing serve to secure the leather to the plates.

Different Japanese armor authorities use different criteria when categorizing what is and is not a tsutsumi / tsuzumi armor.

My understanding of the spelling is that it is standard Japanese, and I don't know that there is really a disagreement among Japanese authorities, but rather just different dialects. Voicing is often not critical to understanding in Japanese, as it may or may not change the meaning. The verb "tsutsumu" (包む) means "to wrap", and the dictionary pronunciation is going to be "tsutsumu" (or, in this case "tsutsumi"). The character "tsu" often gets voiced to a "zu" (or "dzu"), following standard rules in Japanese (usually when it is the first mora in a word that is then used in a compound word after certain other morae). So after "Kawa" it makes sense that it is "kawazutsumi" (just as "tono"->"dono" and "kawa"->"gawa"). The "Tsuzumi" is rather odd, and I've only seen that in English, making me wonder if it isn't just a difference in dialect, where the second "tsu" is voiced in pronunciation, but they might or might not spell it that way. I've seen similar arguments about "jutsu" v. "jitsu" or "jutte" v. "jitte", since they are usually just represented by kanji.

"Tsuzumi" *is* the pronunciation of 鼓, which is a type of drum. Otherwise, it sounds like the voicing of the second "tsu" is creeping into the dialect. Regardless, I've only seen the one kanji used, and I can't immediately find anything in Japanese that gives "tsuzumi" as the pronunciation, just sites like Tony's, in English. What I haven't seen is "kawazuzumi", which would be really weird, imho. You have to have at least one "tsu" in there.

Here is the description on the 0-yoroi from the English version of the Tokyo Fuji Museum site, they do not even mention that it is an o-yoroi but the museum itself does not use the term "tsutsumi" to describe it either. As you say it may not fall into the category of tsutsumi / tsuzumi armor.

Suit of Armor in Purple Susogo Laced Style
Middle Edo Period
Lacquered iron, leather, silk

www.fujibi.or.jp/en/our-collection/profile-of-works.html?work_id=857

The first three armors (two leather and the silk covered one) were from Trevor (Toraba) and those are his descriptions, the hotoke dou and its description are from a well know Japanese dealer (kinokuniya) all of them are Edo period. There are just not many images of this type of armor available from any time period and as you mention, the older ones may not have their leather / cloth coverings intact. Silk can have a very short life span due the dyes used and leather has its own issues.

I would definitely trust Trevor's descriptions, and having talked with someone else, I completely understand how they are "tsutsumi" in this case.

Thank you.


-Ii

[Chukissaki]

Thanks all. It seems what I am looking for it's the reddish brown type.

[worldantiques]

A newly found example.

[Please Delete]

Any idea on the date? It has the two rings, which tells me it has at least been modified in the Edo period, though there are examples of Sengoku and earlier suits modified to meet the later aesthetics.

-Ii