Suou and yoroi hitatare questions

[Mega Zenjirou Yoshi]

On a suou hitatare, would the leather seam reinforcements be sewn all around their perimeter? Approximately what size should they be? Would it be acceptable to skip the loops on the wrist ties, or even just have faux ties, just the leather hanging from the bottom?

On a yoroi hitatare would it be acceptable to use leather ties and reinforcements rather than braid and cord? It makes more sense to me in terms of durability and informality.

If it matters this would be for last half of 16th century, mid level samurai.

[Please Delete]

Feb 23, 2014 11:50:38 GMT -5 Mega Zenjirou Yoshi said:

On a suou hitatare, would the leather seam reinforcements be sewn all around their perimeter? Approximately what size should they be? Would it be acceptable to skip the loops on the wrist ties, or even just have faux ties, just the leather hanging from the bottom?

On a yoroi hitatare would it be acceptable to use leather ties and reinforcements rather than braid and cord? It makes more sense to me in terms of durability and informality.

If it matters this would be for last half of 16th century, mid level samurai.

The leather seam reinforcements are "knots" that you see. They generally are at the critical points--where the seam that attaches the sleeves to the body opens on the front, so that if it starts to tear open it stops. Same with the center back seam and the back of the seam to add the sleeve end to the rest of the sleeve.

As for the loops--for suou you can leave it off entirely. Hitatare often have just the decorative ends, without cords throughout the end of the sleeve, so that is definitely okay.

Leather might be doable for the cords on yoroi hitatare, but it isn't really necessary. You shouldn't need leather--keeping the hitatare sleeves closed shouldn't really be that stressful, and fabric cords will be much easier to tie closed, in my experience, without stiffening up over time and use.

For a 16th century, mid-level samurai, you really don't need a fancy yoroi hitatare and it might be better to just go with small sleeves that you don't need to close with a cord. Since you will likely use a pair of kote, you don't need to worry about closing the hitatare sleeves--you can either put them behind you or just let the kote keep them closed (I used to just wrap them around my arms and have the kote keep it all in place).

-Ii

[Deleted]

Feb 23, 2014 11:50:38 GMT -5 Mega Zenjirou Yoshi said:

On a suou hitatare, would the leather seam reinforcements be sewn all around their perimeter? Approximately what size should they be?

When I made my suoh sugata, the way I did the kotsuyu was to start with about six inches of tie, attach it at the "reinforcement" spots by sewing a bar tack in the middle of the tie, then knotting the tie to hide the bar tack. I used pieces of braid instead of leather, but that's just me.

Feb 23, 2014 14:27:23 GMT -5 Please Delete said:

Same with the center back seam

Interestingly, the suoh in the Kure 'red book' doesn't have a center back kotsuyu, but the same garment has one in the older costume museum photos.

[Mega Zenjirou Yoshi]

Thank you Ii-dono and Ishiyama-dono.

I'm having a hard time finding images of suou hitatares. The two best I've found are this 19th century Noh hitatare
Met
and this one from the online Japanese costume museum.
link

In both, it seems to me that the knots of a more formal hitatare are replaced by leather rectangles. This appealing to me as a wandering around the field when not in armor garment.

I will probably skip the yoroi hitatare, but would like to make a simple suo with kotsuyu and ties like the Met Noh costume linked above.

[Deleted]

Feb 24, 2014 7:32:30 GMT -5 Mega Zenjirou Yoshi said:

In both, it seems to me that the knots of a more formal hitatare are replaced by leather rectangles.

I'm not able to get to the Met pictures just now (site maintenance or such), but my suoh is based directly on the Costume Museum. Better pictures of that garment can be found in the book Samurai: Arms, Armor, Costume by Mitsuo Kure (the Kure red book). Those photos seem to show that the kotsuyu are leather strips tied into overhand knots.

This appealing to me as a wandering around the field when not in armor garment.
I will probably skip the yoroi hitatare, but would like to make a simple suo with kotsuyu and ties like the Met Noh costume linked above.

The suoh sugata is a fine outfit for your purpose, but it's not a simple one. A major difference between the hitatare and suoh is that the suoh is lined. If you've never done a lined garment before, it can be challenging.

[Please Delete]

If you take a close look at the ones on the Met Noh costume you will see that they are actually knots, but very neat. That said, it is a costume, and they aren't the best examples of actual clothing, as they are often stylized in their own way. You will also notice that it is actually next to the seam--I've noticed this on later period and modern clothes, as it makes them easier to fold. I don't know when this started.

[Mega Zenjirou Yoshi]

Hmmm... Some things to think about.

Might wait on the suou for the time being. Think I would rather use the extra fabric to make more individual garments, than linings. (Trying to squeeze a full wardrobe for Pennsic out of the fabric I have on hand, without buying anymore... Though fabrics-store.com has a blaze orange linen which would make a really nice kosode....)

Perhaps I'll add a dobuku to the projected wardrobe to increase layering options...

[Deleted]

Feb 25, 2014 14:02:28 GMT -5 Mega Zenjirou Yoshi said:

{...}Think I would rather use the extra fabric to make more individual garments, than linings.{...}(Trying to squeeze a full wardrobe for Pennsic out of the fabric I have on hand, without buying anymore.){...}Perhaps I'll add a dobuku to the projected wardrobe to increase layering options.

In my experience, a dobuku is a necessary item for Pennsic. It gets chilly on most evenings. My dobuku is padded with quilt batting and is comfy warm. Lady Hara just made me another padded dobuku as a present. That said, it is a lined garment.

[worldantiques]

A couple of yoroi hitatate with some detail images.

samuraiantiqueworld.proboards.com/thread/42/yoroi-hitatare-2



samuraiantiqueworld.proboards.com/thread/17/yoroi-hitatare-armor-clothing?page=1&scrollTo=17

[Mega Zenjirou Yoshi]

Was looking at the hitatare types PDF in the yahoo jml group files section, and knots shown for the suou are different than on the other types... I just can't figure out exactly how they would be constructed.

link

Thinking that for the time being I will do a shitagi and monpei for arming garments... Of course, this will consume less of my fabric inventory, so maybe I will make suou after all. What is shown in the Hitatare types PDF is exactly what I was trying to describe earlier.