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Post by 0tagiri on Oct 31, 2004 14:10:10 GMT -5
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Oct 31, 2004 18:28:46 GMT -5
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Iriye
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Post by Iriye on Nov 3, 2004 2:18:53 GMT -5
Nice to have both those links to play at.... so how do we get TonySensei to finish putting in the DMC color numbers so we can go shop-ping? Bribe his wife? I'd like to be able to print out his pages, get the matching floss & attach a strand or three to each colorbox & make a sample card to take shopping with me.
Next question: do these combinations apply across the periods, or just Heian, then Imperial court doings after that?
Sleepily,
Rizlet
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Nov 3, 2004 14:09:35 GMT -5
Next question: do these combinations apply across the periods, or just Heian, then Imperial court doings after that? Liza Dalby's "Kimono: Fashioning Culture" contains an entire chapter on the color combinations a court lady is supposed to wear - and it's taken from a document written in the 12th century (AFTER the Heian period) by Minamoto Masasuke as sort of a Cliff's Notes for his Empress. If you're interested in doing Heian, it's worth examining. Dalby gives you clues in English as to the symbolism of the color combinations, such as "yuki no shita" meaning "beneath the snow" (dark green beneath gradations of lighter to darker pinks, with the outermost robes in white). When in doubt, start looking at artwork from the period you wish to emulate, and extant garments, if any. For example, there are several portraits of women from the 16th century - in the portrait of Oichi no Kata, for example, you can see from what shows at the collar opening that she's got white on innermost, then a dark red and white striped kosode, then a dark red, then one decorated only at the shoulders and hems ("katasuso" is the term for this style, meant to be worn beneath another layer), then white, with a dark red patterned kosode worn koshimaki style (i.e., wrapped around her waist). A portrait of a lady known as Oinu no Kata shows her wearing an outer kosode of white with brighter red stripes alternating with a pattern in gold, green and white that's too small for me to see well enough to describe in more detail. The portrait of Tosenin shows her in dark brown (a color one doesn't even see in the Heian combinations) embellished with gold lozenges over white and dark red (I really LIKE this one and may have to do something about it one of these days). These portraits are in "Japan's Golden Age: Momoyama" by Money L. Hickman. Hope this helps. Makiwara
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AJBryant
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甲冑師 katchuu-shi
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Post by AJBryant on Nov 3, 2004 20:59:55 GMT -5
Well, actually, there is no wife. Single life sux... Tony
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Iriye
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Post by Iriye on Nov 3, 2004 23:36:49 GMT -5
Nah, I like being single; 'cept for 'that' part.......... so who DO we bribe? Your dog's veterinarian? (No dog?)..... tell you what..... you put up the DMC color codes and I'll tell my kids to NOT use you as a tree if they ever cross your path. Looking like a crank will not deter them. Brandish a shinai and my eldest will think you want to play with him and drag out his. The youngest will mime out your actions, like a mirror, and have you laughing so hard you'll pee your hakama. Trust me, I've got a good security crew in those two. ****Makiwara-dono has given me yet another good reason to go shopping........ good lady, that.... I don't know that I want to pursue Heian just yet, perhaps a plainer period.... Kamakura? I like the Muromachi, and possible the Momoyama, but I like wearing hakama underneath as well... I've teasingly told my Kingdom Youth Minister that if the mosquitos get thick at WW (July), that I was going to wear one of the personal mosquito net hats www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/index.htmtsubo-shozoku (=travel outfit) with mushi-no tareginu (= a hemp veiled sedge hat). The Costume Museum seems to have updated a few pages; I love the dark green www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/wayou/index.htmThe nice thing about this clothing, is that it translates into easy wear at home, and semi-formal wear to the theater........ silk hakama and juban, with the shorter robe... can never remember the difference between haori and hapi..... very comfortable in closely packed seating. By the way, BryantSensei, I do appreciate your hard work for putting the color names and color combinations up, just in case you felt put out a bit. Adding the DMC codes would be that special icing on a beautiful cake. Rizii
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AJBryant
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Post by AJBryant on Nov 6, 2004 13:36:34 GMT -5
>>By the way, BryantSensei, I do appreciate your hard work for putting the color names and color combinations up, just in case you felt put out a bit. Adding the DMC codes would be that special icing on a beautiful cake.
I'll try to find my DMC charts. The problem is that the colors are rather... um... what's the word? Subjective. When one has to come up with a "close enough" match, my choice may be a bit more maroon than someone else's who thinks more purple.
Fortunately, I've got a decent color sense and a copy of the definitive book on Japanese coloring and dyeing here, so...
Tony
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Iriye
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Post by Iriye on Nov 7, 2004 2:02:10 GMT -5
Well, get to work then, lol...... and thanks millions...... and I agree, color sense is so very subjective. To use your example of maroon.... mine is on the more brownish red end of the biz, and a maroon with purple in it to me is more plum-ish. Take out the brown and add blue and I get more violet shades. I like blue reds and trues reds way more than I like the reds tending toward the orange range. Same thing with greens.... blue greens to dark indigo.. but not toward the yellow greens.....
I went back to the museum page where I said I liked the dark green outer kosode.... and clicked on the 'more info' option.... where they said the outer garment was indigo. I looked at it again during daylight hours.... and lo & behold even the colors on my monitor seemed different.... and slightly more different still was a printout of the picture, and printouts of your webpage alongside Lady Solveig's webpage.
I'm not surprised at the differences, as I used to concoct colors using the old HTML codes.... just changing a combination by 1 digit gives you a whole 'nother color or hue or saturation..... lots of fun, but not when you're trying to take that color to the fabric store.
My thanks again to you, and the Ladies Solveig and Makiwara for such valuable knowledge,
Rizii
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Nov 7, 2004 23:46:31 GMT -5
Rizii, you need to stop stressing over colors: Effy-dono's got enough homework!
Keep in mind that DMC isn't period. It's not even standard, it's just ONE thread company's color list, most likely based on modern chemical dyes.
Modern textiles can vary from dye lot to dye lot. If you've ever tried to go back and get more of something after the fact at the fabric store, you know this. Dyeing with vegetable pigments is not a science, it's an art, and you can bet that the dyers in China and Japan had variations in results from lot to lot too.
Dyes can fade, change color, etc. Anyone who's shown horses can tell you that blue ribbons turn purple and purple ribbons turn brown! And that's modern aniline dyes on synthetic satin ribbon. Many of the colors that were so highly prized during the Heian period were created with extremely fugitive dyes, which goes with the "beauty is fleeting" theme of the culture as well as the "I'm so important I can wear a rare, expensive color" factor.
Color perception is and always has been subjective. The color combinations worn in the Imperial court have a context and meaning and were worn for certain reasons. I highly recommend getting your hands on Dalby's "Kimono: Fashioning Culture" and reading the chapter devoted to the subject. It made the lightbulb go on for me.
Makiwara
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Iriye
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Post by Iriye on Nov 8, 2004 9:28:58 GMT -5
Who's stressing about color? Not me! I'm just eager.
And, the DMC chart is something with which I am familiar, so it makes an excellent jumping off point for me and my color choices.
And no, I don't view Effingham's or Solveig's choices of cyber-color-swatches the be-all-and-end-all definitions..... but it would help knowing what they 'meant' when they made the choice.
The book you mentioned will definitely educate my, that is, when I can get me mitts wrapped around it.
Light bulbs: walking in the park next to my home, I looked at the patterns of color made by the ever-increasing chill here.... and a light-bulb did go off in my head. I came home, fiddled with my watercolors, and the combination I made came close to the gradations for the recommended colors to wear in the fall. Of course I missed the mark, but descriptions I read started making more sense.
Besides, we need to keep Effingham busy..... he's only got dust-bunnies and dirty dishes to fight..... and if he takes that job in Japan, he WILL be so busy that we probably shan't hear from him for long intervals..... pick while the pickins' good....
Rizii
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Gengetsu no Kiyoshi
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Post by Gengetsu no Kiyoshi on Mar 28, 2005 6:41:13 GMT -5
I am curious if the color charts are to be used for both male and female clothing? If so then that ends my question. If not where may I find a color chart for the seperate sexes?
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Mar 28, 2005 12:50:26 GMT -5
I am curious if the color charts are to be used for both male and female clothing? If so then that ends my question. If not where may I find a color chart for the seperate sexes? The charting for "Kasane No Irome" at the Sengoku Daimyou website is specifically for women's court clothing and much of what we know about it comes from a 12th century source. Men's court clothing followed somewhat different rules according to one's rank. Makiwara
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Kiyoshige
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Hosokawa Genshichirou Kiyoshige
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Post by Kiyoshige on Mar 28, 2005 18:22:16 GMT -5
Domo Arigato for your response. I was wondering about in general, not necessarily court attire, more of the away from court getting ready to go to battle attire colors?
I would imagine the colors would more or less match you armor color(s) and/or odoshi color(s)?
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Mar 28, 2005 19:42:24 GMT -5
I would imagine the colors would more or less match you armor color(s) and/or odoshi color(s)? Not necessarily, I don't think. Damn, where did I leave my copy of "Heike"? It's got lots of descriptions on the order of "So- and-so wore a hitatare of color-W and color-Y laced armor." See if you can find "Japan: A History In Art" by Bradley Smith at the library. It has a number of paintings of battle sequences from various medieval picture scrolls (emaki) that may help give you some ideas. M.
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Post by Please Delete on Mar 28, 2005 20:24:28 GMT -5
Although the colour combinations can give you a clue as to what is considered aesthetically pleasing to people of the time by studying the colour combinations, men of the provinces (kokumin) would probably not have paid them much mind.
Most men's clothing did not follow the 'rules' as set down for women. There was much more freedom, except in court clothing.
-Ii
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