Women's clothing?

[yoshida]

Where is a good place to purchase women's clothing online? I have looked dat Yosuko.com and can't figure out how to order from them (not to mention afford it). I was also wondering if anyone knew how to use the body measurements when purchasing a kimono. My girl friend is pear shapped and I'm second second guessing myself on buying anything.

[Saionji Shonagon]

yoshida said:

Where is a good place to purchase women's clothing online? I have looked dat Yosuko.com and can't figure out how to order from them (not to mention afford it). I was also wondering if anyone knew how to use the body measurements when purchasing a kimono. My girl friend is pear shapped and I'm second second guessing myself on buying anything.

Are you looking specifically for modern kimono or pre-1600 style kosode? The dimensions and shapes are somewhat different, which is why I ask. I have how-to instructions on how to make kosode at www.geocities.com/wodeford/kosodemadesimple.htm

If you're looking for modern kimono, I have had excellent experiences on eBay through a vendor called Yamatoku Classic. Their home website is at www.yamatoku.jp/classic/ and they're great to deal with. (Go to eBay and search on "vintage kimono" - you may get better prices by auction.)

As for measurements, kimono construction is based on the width of the fabric. Yamatoku gives measurements of length (shoulder to hem), back width, sleeve length and so on. A kimono (or kosode) should overlap in front by a good bit. You need to get your lady's measurements at the widest part of her body. Now look at the back width measurement. Say it's 24 inches (about average for a lady's modern kimono). That tells you that each body panel of the kimono is 12". Each front body panel ALSO has an overlap panel which is half the width of each body panel, so that's another 6." So that means a kimono with a 24" wide back has a total circumference of 24" (back) + 12" + 6" (left front) + 12" + 6" (right front) for a total of 60". Of that 60," you want a decent bit to wrap around.

I'm not exactly svelte and I'm also "pear shaped." I have one kimono that's 24" across the back and I have one that's 25". The 24" is an OK fit, the 25" is better for me.

Hope this is helpful.

Makiwara

[yoshida]

Well, she wants something to wear to events with me, especially a Pas. I'm streched pretty thin making armour and stuff for other people that I can't find time to make her the outfit I would like to, so I'm just going to bight the bullet. We have seen a lot of vintage stuff on ebay that she really likes, even some wedding gown stuff, but i didn't think it would be too cool to wear to an event. Not that many people around these parts could tell the differance... it would just seem wrong. She's really not into too much Japanese stuff (she like English things) but she wants to look more like my lady when I go to events that require more pomp.

[Otagiri Tatsuzou]

Acutally, I think that the "wedding gown" stuff might work well as a an uchikake. Then she would just need one or two kimono and an obi to wear under them.

www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/30.htm

[Saionji Shonagon]

Otagiri said:

Acutally, I think that the "wedding gown" stuff might work well as a an uchikake. Then she would just need one or two kimono and an obi to wear under them.

The long furisode sleeves are going to be REALLY wrong on a wedding gown, though.

Avoid black. I can't find ANY evidence of women wearing black kimono in period. When in doubt, solid colors are safest. Period kosode are significantly wider than modern kimono - if you can find something that's going to be big on her, so much the better. (If the average kimono panel is 14", kosode panels were more like 16" -multiply that by 5 and you've got a significant size difference, particularly given the size of most Japanese women.)

If you've got time to reshape the sleeves so that the outer edge is more rounded, that will give a more period appearance. Use a NARROW obi, no more than 2-3" wide, and tie it in front with the ends hanging down.

Hope this helps.
Makiwara

[Saionji Shonagon]

makiwara said:

Are you looking specifically for modern kimono or pre-1600 style kosode? The dimensions and shapes are somewhat different, which is why I ask. I have how-to instructions on how to make kosode at www.geocities.com/wodeford/kosodemadesimple.htm

My apologies! That link should be
www.geocities.com/wodeford/KosodeMadeSimple.htm

Makiwara

[raito]

I suppose I can pimp my own www.raito.com/clothing.htm.

A couple nights is all it would take.

I have seen a reference to a woman wearing a black kosode is a sort of a costume contest. She won because she was quite simple, and all the other ladies went for opulent. Like so much that I find, it isn't written down.

I disagree with the 16" panel measurement. I've used 14" for years (from somehting I read). In Tsujigahana, there's measurements for the garments, and 14" is a better compromise than 16".

My lady is 5'4", less than 120 lbs. The 14" panels look right on here, compared to the various artisitc depictions. There seems to be enough material there.

[Saionji Shonagon]

Guest-raito said:

I have seen a reference to a woman wearing a black kosode is a sort of a costume contest. She won because she was quite simple, and all the other ladies went for opulent. Like so much that I find, it isn't written down..

Argh! Date? Reference? Where were you when I found the black monkey brocade last year? Never mind, Jehanne got a cotehardie out of it.

Guest-raito said:

I disagree with the 16" panel measurement. I've used 14" for years (from somehting I read). In Tsujigahana, there's measurements for the garments, and 14" is a better compromise than 16".

I didn't make it up. Amanda Meyer Stinchecum (in "Kosode: 16th-19th Century Textiles From The Nomura Collection.") includes measurements and cutting diagrams for a kosode dating from 1599 based upon a fabric width of 42 centimeters, which is actually about 16.5 inches. HOWEVER, you're not wrong either. The owner of said kosode was a man, baby.

Current practice in making kimono is to sew without cutting the body panels to size, meaning that if the wearer is on the small size, a wider seam allowance is used. (This is done because the kimono might be disassembled for cleaning and if you've got selvaged edges instead of cut ones, it's not going to fray.) So, for a wearer on the small size, kosode could be tailored to a narrower proportion.

I'm a big boned, plus sized 5'6" with long arms. 16" panels make ME look "dainty."

Makiwara

[raito]

makiwara said:

Argh! Date? Reference? Where were you when I found the black monkey brocade last year? Never mind, Jehanne got a cotehardie out of it.

I've got a good memory for some things, and not for others. When I was younger, I filed away information in my brain, but not usually the reference. I don't think it was brocade, though.

I didn't make it up. Amanda Meyer Stinchecum (in "Kosode: 16th-19th Century Textiles From The Nomura Collection.") includes measurements and cutting diagrams for a kosode dating from 1599 based upon a fabric width of 42 centimeters, which is actually about 16.5 inches. HOWEVER, you're not wrong either. The owner of said kosode was a man, baby.

Current practice in making kimono is to sew without cutting the body panels to size, meaning that if the wearer is on the small size, a wider seam allowance is used. (This is done because the kimono might be disassembled for cleaning and if you've got selvaged edges instead of cut ones, it's not going to fray.) So, for a wearer on the small size, kosode could be tailored to a narrower proportion.

I'm a big boned, plus sized 5'6" with long arms. 16" panels make ME look "dainty."

Makiwara

Didn't say you did. I have the other book, too. I just prefer the 14" measurment, as I believe it to be closer to what was common. I've seen more measurements from garments closer to 14" than 16".

My impression is that cloth wasn't sized according to sex. There's several references to the size of a standard bolt of cloth, but I've also seen different takes on what the size actually was. One says that due to the type of loom used in Japan, one doesn't find wide cloth. But there are also the imported textiles to consider there. There's obviously some variation, but the question is how much. 1", 2.5", 6"?

I also believe that period practice was to leave as much selveges as possible, just like today. I'm pretty careful about that in my constructions.

As for sizing, I'm 6' 250lbs., and my 14" panels look OK on me.

And as far as textiles go, AEsa has a white kosode with black (ink) cats on it. Remember the ink painting genre that uses anthropomorphic animals to point out human foibles? This material is just that, cats in kimonos. Looks pretty good, until you find that one cat who also has a camera slung from its neck. It's improbably medieval Japanese, but obviously Japanese.

[Suzaku]

*sighs* this thread is so helpful! ;D I now have a fair idea of how to make my garb. ^_^
*bows deeply* arigatou minna!