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Post by Date Saburou Yukiie on Apr 5, 2005 9:54:01 GMT -5
Konnichi wa, tomodachi. I have been contemplating an issue that I would like your input on.
Period-ness. The act of portraying a Japanese period.
It has come to my attention that many folk play the SCA game assuming that if they do a "reasonable" job - they are cool. this fits the "reasonable" dictums, for sure.
But I ask..."How hard is it to reproduce a more period look in one's costuming?"
Some things are hard as hell...try finding a proper brocade that is woven into a three inch piece of nearly transparent silk for the strip hanging off of your court hat. - There were only so many legitimate patterns...
Getting one's mon worked into the fabric of one's Hitatare Kamishimo in the proper size...hard again.
But still...the shapes and general patterns of period outfits are not terribly hard to reproduce.
My Knight, Sir Ogami, pushes all his squires, and indeed, he is constantly nudging the Knights of the wrealm for a more period look, and I cannot argue with him. He has made period looking kegutsu and it makes his garb look outstanding. His garb is perfect, for his period - at least as far as look. Yes, we all use machine sewing... Yes, our fabric is not selveged in 14, 18, or 20 inch bolt widths...but we make due...
I say we should all dive in and see how cool we can make our garb, our armor, and our equipment. It is not hard...but it looks cool as hell.
I am not a "period nazi" but I sure do thing that with a little more effort, we can all look better.
Date
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Post by raito on Apr 5, 2005 10:19:35 GMT -5
I often find it amusing that those who can discourse on the difference between a cotehardie of 1380 and one of 1390 often assume that the term 'Japanese' is somehow a comprehensive term for all that occurred in Japan from 800 or so to the unification.
The perception seems to be that nothing changed during that time, which we know to not be so.
For me, finding the correct fabrics is simply not possible (is there anyone doing tsujigahana today? at a price I can afford?). I am rather fortunate in that we have here Gayfeather, so at least I can buy silk on occasion.
It is always a choice between things. Date-dono, you could have that brocade you need, if only you would take the time to learn to weave, and acquire all the tools and materials necessary (insert smiley here for the impaired).
Hard is relative. I all too often dress improperly because of the temperature. Even though it is said that Japanese clothing is made for warm and humid climates, I find that kosode over kosode under kamishimo is warm enough to cause me to perspire. As well, different modes of dress are required by period requirements for different activities. Yet event schedules may not allow us time to change clothes often enough to accomodate this.
On other topics, though, I have found since my latest adjustments to my kosode patterns (roughly 5 years ago), that they have a much more correct look, if period illustrations are to be considered. Even when they shift and begin to gap, at least the gaps look as they did in the pictures.
It is unfortunate that most of the literature out there concentrates on the kosode. That's not enough for us.
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AJBryant
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Post by AJBryant on Apr 5, 2005 11:19:07 GMT -5
Yes. No. I understand the problem. I've become too much of a Japanese fabric purist, in a way. I loathe the idea of making new garb because... well, the fabrics just aren't right. (Well, that and I really don't have the space to make decent hakama -- my apartment really is that small and cluttered.) But I do find Japanese garb is excellent hot-weather stuff. One under kosode (functions like the sweat-wicking T-shirt) and a kosode. Hakama are full, but they have ample breeze-ways and have the advantage of not being tight-fitting. I really do wonder how those Heian noblemen survived hot summer days in Kyoto, though. I've been in Kyoto in the summer, and it's a bowl -- Kyoto is the basin of a ring of mountains, and in the summer the air just doesn't MOVE. It hangs there, wave on wave of humidity. There's a reason that Heian nobles seemed to be very low-energy folks, and all those scrolls show them sitting around on the floor playing board games. But, Date, my padawan, you broach a subject near and dear to my heart. The trouble is that there is so much mis- and disinformation out there. People with chopsticks in their hair. Edo kamishimo. Modern kimono. I've seen people wearing happi to events which were blazoned with big, fat Japanese characters: "Maruzen dai-baagen seeru." They bought them second-hand in Japan, but don't seem to think wearing modern jackets proclaiming "Maruzen's big bargain sale" isn't period... What do you think we should work on first to help raise the bar? Tony
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Apr 5, 2005 11:26:48 GMT -5
I agree with your overall desire to move away from "generic-jap" (and who I was for the last 20 years) to a more historically based representation. Part of that is to pick a decade for your persona - part of it is to understand your social status.
About year and a half ago I understood the latter - that I am a 100 koku samurai and I am responsible for the arms and armour of two retainers. It was my intent to build those suits and have them available for use by this last Estrella - even if there were none to wear them. I might finally finish this task by mid summer. But it is also my responsibility to walk back through my own kit and replace every bit of gear that was 'good enough' with something that was 'better,' now that I know who and when I am. I have got a long way to go - but at least I now have a goal. (BTW: For me, plastic tosei gusoku is now only good enough for retainer gear - I need to get a steel hard suit finished!)
As for what is 'better,' I weigh that on the scale of what is 'accurate.' How accurate a reproduction is a particular article of clothing? How accurate is the ensemble?
I am not a clothing laurel. I am not a Living Historian. I am not sure how accuracy is correctly judged in reproduction, but I can make some guesses:
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fiber - Is the fiber content the same as the original?
weave - What is the width? What is the density of the warp and weave? What is the thickness of the thread?
color - Do the colors reproduce what was used by the intended portrayal? Are there 'sumptuary' considerations?
dye - Is the material dyed in an historical method?
material pattern - Is the pattern in the material appropriate for the portrayal? Woven, painted, dyed, embroidered or other?
clothing pattern - Is the piece built from cloth cut in a historical pattern? Is it sized appropriately for the person doing the portrayal?
assembly - Is the piece assembled by an historical method? Is the thread used appropriate? Is the stitch?
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I am not saying that it should be ALL OR NOTHING. I am saying that all of these should be considered together and you should make the more accurate choice when and where feasible given your time, money, skills and availability of resources. You SHOULD understand why a particular choice is less accurate and another more so.
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I am still stuck on fiber and weave.
Where did the cotton come from that was used in Japan? What is an appropriate off-the-shelf equivalent? Is cotton broadcloth appropriate?
What is an appropriate off-the-shelf equivalent for 16th century silk used in kosode and hakama?
What is an appropriate off-the-shelf equivalent for 16th century hemp used in kosode and hakama?
By off-the-shelf equivalent, I would be very grateful for a retailer and catalog number!
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Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Apr 5, 2005 12:15:33 GMT -5
... As well, different modes of dress are required by period requirements for different activities. Yet event schedules may not allow us time to change clothes often enough to accomodate this... My lady teases me for being a court junkie. Anyone who knows me is familiar with me doing the quick-change from my standard kataginu or hitatare kamishimo into my kariginu sugata. It depends on whose presence I will be in. Usualy I bring out the kariginu for TRM only. I'll have to get pictures up sooner or later. Takeda
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Post by Date Saburou Yukiie on Apr 5, 2005 12:56:08 GMT -5
Hiraizumi-dono,
I am a big fan of Maruzen's sales...and have purchased numerous articals that I can use under the guise of a sale... However, I would blanch were i to see Clan bretheren , or anyone else not in the know, wearing Happi displaying such... Not everyone reads kanji...I am not perfect either, and have limited reading skills.
Personally, I am fond of the Ten foot rule.
I would not be adverse to seeing people wearing what looks corect from about ten feet. If the image is close, and the profile is close...then all is well.
I know, for instance, that my SCA combat armor is not truely right...but from ten feet it looks damned good. I know it survives SCA combat where a real piece would crinkle... I know I can stand there, prowd, and boast that under the ten foot rule, I did well.
I think the same goes with garb. If you look good from a distance, then all is well. Most people do not get close enough to a person to count silken hand stitching in one's kosode. Most do not get close enough to see if you used machine stitiching vs hand work.
Period is period, and fun is fun. We cannot justify the grills we use for our combat helmets, nor can we justify the overly thick materials we use to protect us, in period. Yet, if it looks good from a certain distance...then all is well.
As Raito-dono pointed out...hard is relative, and depends on what each of us wishes to spend on any given effort.
I could learn to weave my own brocaded fabric... I could build a loom big enough to have one person sit on it at the very top and help shuttle the loom of gold thread across as the lower worker works the braces and shuttles.
Will that happen? I doubt it.
We are forced to learn much more as anachronists than the real period people had to learn. I have, for instance, learned all of the proper Japanese nomenclature for the various parts of Japanese armor. I build armor, and I also build modified SCA style japanese armor. i also build clothing, do japanese style illumination, make arrows, archery equipment, and targets. i will learn one day to make yumi.
The average Japanese Samurai did very few of these things, nor was he in any position to learn how to do them.
Still, I think that we can endeavor to make our appearance much better than we do.
I refuse to disalow myself to make a piece of garb just because we do not have access to the right "period" fabric.
I made a lacquered hat once out of balsa. It was the wrong material, it was heavier than the real thing, and it was in all ways just wrong. But...it looked good from a distance. It served me in court, and i knew what I should have done, had I the proper materials.
Was I wrong in making it? No. Remember what our group is called. Society for CREATIVE anachronism.
My clan favors, for the most part, haidate made of large hexagon shaped plastic plates sewn to a thick, bulky fabric padding. This is more of a nod to SCA conventions than to the realities of samurai armor.
I personally hate these damned things, and though it will likely get me in trouble, I would rather go on record as saying that there are better alternatives.
There are better ways to make proper looking Japanese style haidate.
The protective value being similar, I submit that it is possible to make protective or functional gear in a more realistic manner.
I say, to be period looking...one must chose a period. One must not say I am a Japanese dude. one must say, I am portraying a Japanese dude who is an adult in the periods ranging from the 1330's to the 1360's - or what ever.
How can I know what clothing I should wear if I just say I am a Japanese...I need to say I am a Japanese from x time frame.
Later, when the basic look is achieved - one can politely sit down over a cup of sake and say, "you know...my persona really should have had chinese brocade in place of this wal mart brocade...but for now I cannot afford that."
We all must do this.
Sigh...ranting where I probably should not be ranting.
Date.
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Post by raito on Apr 5, 2005 14:41:28 GMT -5
I see it all as a continuum. If I am moving forward, then it is likely sufficient. How far I get is likely of less importance to me than that I am getting somewhere. Even my barrel dou is better than what was falling apart that I wore before. For me, that's an improvement. I spend a lot of effort attempting to stifle myself at some of the 'attempts' I see. Frankly, they're at least as good as what I did long ago before I knew anything at all. (Strangely, I've begun to see women in red hakama and white kosode as being in their underwear, for example) (I hate the pleated kataginu, because I can't place them earlier than 1602)(The gi is right out) (Modern kimono look to me like modern kimono, though the rest of the world can't tell the difference) (Black pajamas are right out ) (OK, I don't usually stifle at the black pajamas ;D). Heck, my first kosode didn't have the extra panel in front. How's that for general suckiness? My hakama still aren't right (but there's precious little good documentation on those). I agree with Date-dono's assertion that a good place to start is how we present our persona -- as a place and time. As for the tsujigahana, I've attempted it at times. Lots of work, but pretty decent results on the simple stuff. I also have one kamishimo that I made for my Knighting that came out pretty well out of silk, but was quite expensive. And one doesn't usually see them in white. One wish I do have is to spend a bit of time and make better jingasa for combat than I've seen. Although a worthy effort, they always remind me of the tin man. Perhaps if the jingasa itself were tilted back on the head...
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Post by Please Delete on Apr 5, 2005 17:12:35 GMT -5
I have to agree with a lot of people here--we are all moving forward. So many things I make, with the best of intentions, turn out slightly 'wrong' to me, and I try to learn and go on. I don't think I have anything I would really enter as a 'perfectly period reproduction', but I have some stuff that is fairly close and slowly getting better. It does help, I think, for people to focus on 'period-appropriate outfits'--I tend to jump around in time, but try to get it right for whatever time period I am portraying at a given event. I definitely cringe at a lot of things that I don't consider to really be an 'attempt'. E.g.: A ninja-suit with a fox's tail is not an 'attempt' at period clothing. It is wonderful for an anime convention, don't get me wrong, but to put that much effort into doing it that wrong often gets to me. I would rather see modern hakama and keikogi, in that instance. I understand a pleated kataginu as an 'attempt', but I do wish people would do a little more research, as simpler garments could be done (ie less effort) for a more period result. I have several pieces that are 'off'. So far my pure silk noushi has no body, and the one that has body is polyester fabric that was something like $0.99/yard: modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/pictures/JUL0306.JPGmodzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/12Night_plus.htmlI would like to see more people doing at least the hakama and hitatare and kosode patterns. They are simple, and can be done with solid colors. A kataginu can be made by just leaving off the sleeves. A kariginu really isn't that hard either. For women, I really don't think a plain uchikake and aigi arrangement is all that difficult, and these can be done in plain colors. And I've seen much better efforts in the past 5 years, I think. People do seem to be getting it--slowly.
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Apr 5, 2005 20:44:56 GMT -5
(Strangely, I've begun to see women in red hakama and white kosode as being in their underwear, for example) Raito-dono, it's not just you, it's SCA conditioning. I once caused a stir by "flashing" the guys at fight practice. I only lifted my shirt enough that they saw maybe a couple of inches of midriff above the waist of my jeans. They were used to seeing me at events in very modest European styles, covered from neck to wrist to ankle and even in modern dress, that image was apparently in the backs of their heads. I was really surprised at how genuinely shocked they seemed to be. M.
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Apr 5, 2005 21:48:38 GMT -5
I can't help feeling that I set you off this morning, Friend. Can I help it that the men in this provincial backwater dress like scarecrows and I must pine for more civilized company? Most do not get close enough to see if you used machine stitiching vs hand work. I was rather alarmed to discover that I COULD tell Patrick Stewart was wearing a hand sewn suit in the first "X-Men" film. ;-> Hint: check out his lapels. (It's only the first movie, BTW.) I happen to enjoy hand sewing. This is NOT a judgement on those who prefer to use a machine. Must? Date-dono, you can lead a horse to the library, but you can't make him read. Enforcing that "must" is pretty much impossible. I live in an extremely Eurocentric kingdom where many people equate Japanese with fringie. Most of the few others doing Japanese that I've observed are still at the stage where they're in martial arts gear and vintage kimono bought off eBay. Yes, it makes me twitch inwardly, but I hope I have had the grace to hide it and not turn into the legendary SCA knowitall who decends on the weak and feebly dressed screaming, "You're doing it all WRONG!" Yeah, I know, Sei Shonagon would, in a heartbeat. The twitch usually manifests itself in an impulse to show up at a major kingdom event - in Japanese, you all know by now I've got timeshare issues - dressed as correctly as I can possibly manage, and being as visible as possible. If they notice and learn from it, great. If they come and ask me questions, even better! If not, there's not very much I can do about it. I will be attending our Beltane Coronation in Japanese. The Clothier's Guild has asked me to teach about fans. Now if I can gently convince the lady who has offered to bring feathers that the Japanese didn't use them..... [/quote]Sigh...ranting where I probably should not be ranting. [/quote] It was the bumper stickers, wasn't it? ;-> Makiwara
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AJBryant
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Post by AJBryant on Apr 5, 2005 23:22:35 GMT -5
Otagiri-dono wrote: Where did the cotton come from that was used in Japan? What is an appropriate off-the-shelf equivalent? Is cotton broadcloth appropriate? I don't think cotton *was* used -- not until the Portuguese got there. The kanji that is usually read today as "cotton" historically meant, I think, "non-silk fabric." But it has been so much used for cotton that that is the way everyone perceives it today -- much in the same way that "maize" is now the official thing people think of when one says "corn," although "corn" is an older word for a very different concept ("corned beef" anyone?). I'm making the move toward linen (as pseudo hempstuff) and silk, albeit slowly. As a matter of fact, Luis Frois, in his treatise on how the Japanese are different from Westerners, comments that the Japanese of his day are really taking to heavy cotton (it sounds like heavy broadcloth or even canvas) hakama as they wear really well. Date-dono wrote: That would be the "jisshaku sadamari (\ŽÚ’è‚Ü‚è)." So say those who've fought him. ;D >smack!!!!< Only because Marion Zimmer Bradley had to come up with a name on the spur of the moment so a fledgling medievalist junkie organization in Berkley could reserve a city park one afternoon. The name means NOTHING and has NO meaning or implications or ulterior logic behind it. She could just as possibly said "The Anachronauts" or "Medievals 'R' Us." I twitch and respond very negatively when I hear anyone try to use that "creative" as justification for anything. It doesn't mean ANYTHING. That having been said, I agree with the rest of the sentiment you express. But -- if I may suggest -- it's an UNNECESSARY one. Larger, or more heavy, protection can easily be concealed within the foundations of more traditionally appearing haidate. As you say, it's a choice, but it's not one that's forced by real necessity -- it's simply a choice. I used to have haidate that incorporated the better part of a large "Welcome" mat as the internal structure, and it was wonderfully protective (until I met a laminated rattan falchion named "Thigh-bane" in one memorable tourney... I don't think 12-gg stainless cuisses could have saved me from that mo-fo ). Hear, hear! Although this is really true across the board. One very frustrating thing is when someone says "I want to be English/French/German. What did they wear?" on any of the fora I inhabit. They usually get a lecture from someone soon about the importance of time. An Englishman in 1700 doesn't look like one in 1900, so why should an Englishman of 900 look like one of 1400? But for some reason, people don't often transpose that to Japan... although it's just as important a point. Fortunately, there wasn't that much variation in the clothing. There were some smaller differences in cut or detail or styling, but in general the clothing worn by a Heian peasant isn't THAT different from a sengoku one; likewise, the clothing of a nobleman of those two periods. Where it really changed was in WHO wore WHAT and WHEN -- styles devolved, and informal garments became formal ones. A Heian servant would wear a hitatare. A Kamakura samurai on official duty would wear a hitatare. A Muromachi daimyo would wear a hitatare as normal daywear. A Momoyama daimyo wore one as his more formal daily outfit. Raito-dono wrote: Except if they're teddies. Black teddies are always acceptable. It just occurred to me: a jingasa would be great for a Japanese Beetle Bailey... Makiwara-dono wrote: I have occasionally remarked that more than one person told me, while I was living there, that I would never get a Laurel for Japanese stuff in the West. Fortunately for me, the Middle was a bit more receptive. Tony
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Apr 5, 2005 23:32:03 GMT -5
Otagiri-dono wrote: Where did the cotton come from that was used in Japan? What is an appropriate off-the-shelf equivalent? Is cotton broadcloth appropriate? I don't think cotton *was* used -- not until the Portuguese got there. The kanji that is usually read today as "cotton" historically meant, I think, "non-silk fabric." That;s okay. It is the fourth year of Bunroku, didn't you know (I'll pick you up some nice souveniers in Chosen ). But I am serious about my request. I don't know of anyway to gain the knowledge of which silk and which hemp is appropriate over the internet without someone who has been there first simply saying fabric #abc123 at silk-r-us.com is the right stuff. Please.
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Apr 6, 2005 1:26:44 GMT -5
But I am serious about my request. I don't know of anyway to gain the knowledge of which silk and which hemp is appropriate over the internet without someone who has been there first simply saying fabric #abc123 at silk-r-us.com is the right stuff. The silk I used for the target kosode was purchased from Renaissance Fabrics and it looks like she still has some, billed as rust colored. It's a machine woven dupioni, but not terribly slubby and has a body like taffeta - just a little bit stiff and rustly. www.renaissancefabrics.net/products.php?int_type_id=3Not exactly cheap, but her stuff is quite nice, even though the brocades are pretty much useless for what we do. You could always email her and ask for swatches. I haven't tried hemp for anything yet so I can't comment except that Dharma Trading has a silk hemp blend which is slubbier than their dupioni, if the swatches they sent me are to be believed. Since Tony mentioned linen as a possible hemp substitute, may I recommend ITA (www.fabrics-store.com)? Their prices are ok, they generally have a good selection of solid colors (important, since trying to get linen to take a dye can be a challenge), and they tell you a weight in ounces per yard which is very useful. 3.5 oz is the lightest and perfect for undergarment layers. Their medium (around 5 oz) and heavier weights (7 oz) would do nicely for outer garments. Linen holds wrinkles like nothing else, but it breathes beautifully, so it's great for hot weather wear. Be sure and finish your seams though: linen frays like mad if you don't. M.
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Post by raito on Apr 6, 2005 8:16:24 GMT -5
I don't think cotton *was* used -- not until the Portuguese got there. The kanji that is usually read today as "cotton" historically meant, I think, "non-silk fabric." But it has been so much used for cotton that that is the way everyone perceives it today -- much in the same way that "maize" is now the official thing people think of when one says "corn," although "corn" is an older word for a very different concept ("corned beef" anyone?). Except if they're teddies. Black teddies are always acceptable. Tony It's still espionage ;D You may wish to contact Master Gerald on the kanji point. It rather changes the tone of his recent article. Then again, 'Japan in the Muromachi Age' does the same. I had thought that 'corn' was simply a term for whatever the predominant local grain was. I'm pretty sure that 'corned beef' is more similar to 'corning' gunpowder.
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AJBryant
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Post by AJBryant on Apr 6, 2005 11:05:16 GMT -5
Hey, undercover work is undercover work. ;D (I am so going to Hell for this.... ) It does, but to most people out there, corn is that stuff that comes on ears or you pop and eat at movies. (I've known people to ask where the corn is in corned beef hash... sigh.) Tony
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