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Post by Nagamochi on May 4, 2005 2:21:43 GMT -5
Firstly, I'm still in the process of persona development. I know I definitely want to go with something Heian. However, no matter how much I try and force myself to like the mens' upperclass clothing, I just can't resist the beauty of the womens' juni-hitoe. Therefore, I'm left to wonder: are there any heian-period examples or reasons for a man to cross the clothing-gender line? If so, please enlighten me. If not, feel free to berate me physically with your uchiwa or sensu the next time you see me. Also, if at all possible, keeping this on a budget would be wonderful. (Sake dreams on moonshine money)
Arigato gosaimasu Nagamochi
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Post by Date Saburou Yukiie on May 4, 2005 4:56:47 GMT -5
Nagamochi-dono, In Onmyoji II Abe no Seimei cross dressed as a woman and danced elaborately to try to lure Amaterasu Omikami down from the heavens. He had on lovely female garb. My knight informs me that there were examples of lower class men who cross dressed and frequented the docks where chinese and korean sailors pulled in to trade, but he says this smiling, and says he cannot remember the book he saw that in... Of course, Noh and Kabuki actors played the parts of woman, and were thusly attired, at least in performing mode. I have seen bunraku performers operating their puppets acting out the roles of females in their performances, but that is not the same as you mean. We have a lady who is portraying Heian - she may know more. Her name is Minamoto no Taikawa Saiaiko, and she posts frequently on this forum. www.aasianst.org/absts/2000abst/Japan/J-168.htmwww.univie.ac.at/eajs/sections/abstracts/Section_3b/3b_5.htmHope this helps... Date
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Post by Ki no Kotori on May 4, 2005 8:05:33 GMT -5
Nagamochi-dono, There is a work of literature that mentions a brother and sister trading places: The Changelings. It is now out of print, but you can find it used (expensive), or in some libraries. Here is the Amazon link:* Amazon Book LinkHowever, that is a work of fiction. I haven't seen any evidence of Heian-era men actually doing any cross-dressing in the reading that I've done. I've seen references to warriors disguising themselves as women in order to escape or do something sneaky, though. Moreso in art than in writing. OTOH, if you really like the pretty garb (FAAAABRIC!!!), go for it! The SCA is flexible that way, one of the great things about this organization, I think. :-D --Ki no Torahime *moderator edit to shorten URL
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on May 4, 2005 8:40:13 GMT -5
Wait until some namban plants his feet on your hems for the first time. ;->
I don't recall such examples from my reading for that period, but I'll take a quick spin through my books when I get in from work tonight. There may or may not be something in Morris' "The World of the Shining Prince."
On the other hand, I know any number of women in the SCA who routinely wear men's clothing or even have male personae. If you really want to, there's no reason you can't.
I was thinking that I myself might have to experiment with men's dress for kite flying, as it's not something women traditionally did. As late as the 1970's, Tal Streeter says that women were not part of kite festival teams. If they wanted to fly kites, they did so from the privacy of their own back yards. It would certainly give me the excuse to try my hand at making hakama.....
M.
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on May 4, 2005 9:02:05 GMT -5
"Nearly two hundred and fifty years ago, the daughter of a rich merchant of the city of the Shôguns, while attending some temple-festival, perceived in the crowd a young samurai of remarkable beauty, and immediately fell in love with him. Unhappily for her, he disappeared in the press before she could learn through her attendants who he was or whence he had come. {p. 12} But his image remained vivid in her memory, even to the least detail of his costume. The holiday attire then worn by samurai youths was scarcely less brilliant than that of young girls; and the upper dress of this handsome stranger had seemed wonderfully beautiful to the enamoured maiden. She fancied that by wearing a robe of like quality and color, bearing the same crest, she might be able to attract his notice on some future occasion." www.sacred-texts.com/shi/igj/igj04.htmI believe that there is a tradition of the 'beautiful samurai,' but my belief is probably more 'informed' by anime than anything else. Here is a hint of it ... "…the decline of shudo had already begun in the eighteenth century when Japan was still in the middle of its long period of voluntary seclusion. The spirit of shudo as a way’ began to retreat, whereas a sensualist homosexuality flourished more and more. The fact that after the end of the eighteenth century the kagema’ (boy actors) mostly dressed themselves as girls, while during the Genroku period they had dressed themselves gracefully as beautiful young men, also indicates a serious degeneration of the homosexual tradition." Watanabe and Iwata, 1989, p. 121 www.androphile.org/preview/Culture/Japan/japan.htm
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Post by Please Delete on May 4, 2005 9:32:19 GMT -5
There is actually a period Japanese story called The Changelings in English (Torikaebaya monogatari in Japanese). The translation by Rosette Willig is ISBN 0-8047-1124-0. It is about a brother and sister who are inclined to take on the opposite gender roles, and the difficulties therein. Eventually they both switch back, taking their 'proper' places in society. It was commented on in Mumyo zoshi, which was written between 1196 and 1202--possibly it was written as early as 1080, although there is some confusion between two tales of similar name both coming out of that period. Still, it appears to be 12th century at the latest.
The writing apparently suggests that of a woman and a man--indicating either a later rewrite, or perhaps a woman who had gone through complications similar to the story.
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Post by Saiaiko on May 4, 2005 9:48:23 GMT -5
I was composing this off and on this morning, so I apologize if I repeat things already mentioned in previous posts.Oh my, I do like discussions like this... Where do I start? As far as I can find, gender roles tend to have a fluid nature in Japanese history. Every once in a while, in an attempt to solidfy things across the board, one leader or another will try to cement the social strata. Very often the gender roles become temporarily more rigid as a result. But this is usually passing and lingers more tenaciously in the more self-conscious social classes. Something else to take into consideration is the aesthetic of attractiveness applied to either gender. When looking at early pornography or shunga with a Western eye, it is difficult to determine the gender of the participants soley on facial characteristics. Both seem to have "feminine" and soft features. Both, as well, wear loose and luxurious clothing. Hairstyle is usually a dead give-away, and so is sword-wearing. Very often men of the kuge class and higher-ranking men of the buke class preferred "feminine" materials in their dress. Sheer silk gauze was quite popular in the oppressive humidity of the Heian summer. Also, pale brocades and brightly-colored fabric adorned with intricate desgins of vines, flowers, dragonflies, clouds, and butterflies were not uncommon in the mode of dress for certain social situations. That brings me to the next thought.... modes of activity/conduct. Then, as it is in modern Japan, what you were doing defined what you would be wearing. To quote a friend, "They don't play 'shirts' and 'skins' in Japan. If you are playing baseball, you are wearing your 'baseball uniform'." In context this means that if you were playing a woman in a Noh or Kabuki theater, you dressed as a woman. You should see some of the descriptions of the costuming. It should have made all but the Empress blush with the inadequacy of her own wardrobe. Cross-dressing for women was fairly common, as it is now, and was also based on activity. Hunting required a "hunting outfit" regardless of gender. I seriously doubt that my hero, Tomoe Gozen, would leap onto her horse in a juni-hitoe. What it comes down to is that there is a historical basis for wearing "feminine" material and for cross-dressing to indicate exchanged gender roles. While I am not as well-read on this topic as I would like to be, I can point you in the right direction for research. Many diaries and narratives give reference to it, www.aasianst.org/absts/2000abst/Japan/J-168.htm and The Changelings is not just a work of fiction exactly, but a translation of an older Japanese tale of half-siblings, Torikaebaya Monogatari . It's fun to draw parallels to show the continuity of human behavior, and I will end my drawn-out response with one more: Cross-dressing and homosexuality have gone together like rice balls and sake forever. This also seems to fall into the accepted aesthetic of dressing for the mode of activity, though it was not a hard and fast rule. So, my advice is to familiarize yourself with the fabrics used by Heian nobilty and the general beauty aesthetic of the time, keeping in mind that beauty is power and vice versa. And, the more fabric you can use, the richer you will look. A final thought: You can be any gender you want in the SCA. If your "Prince Genji" persona needs some me-time and wants to wander a moonlight evening in "Empress Taisho" mode, have a blast. And don't be surprised to see me out there in my deer-fur kegutsu, red hakama, fuschia suikan and a tachi hanging from my obi. One certainly cannot attack the Taira in 12 cumbersome layers of silk and brocade.
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Post by fujiwara on May 4, 2005 10:03:07 GMT -5
Woo hoo! *skips arouns* I get to be a courtesan, I get to be a courtesan...did I say that out loud? *slinks into the corner* tee hee
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Post by Nagamochi on May 4, 2005 17:51:36 GMT -5
*whew* gotta calm down from the humor Thank you for all the info given thus far; it's provided me with a great deal to think about. I understand what you mean by gender bending being appropriate according to the particular situation, I'm just wondering if there's a more regular instance, like the trannies on the docks, that existed. Ultimately, if all else fails, I'll keep in mind that this is the SCA, and thus I have room for give. Although, Date-dono, is there a dock at Pennsic I might hang out on? I always did like a man in uniform! ;D
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on May 4, 2005 19:31:22 GMT -5
Oh, poo! Ivan Morris' "The World of the Shining Prince" is apologetically unhelpful on the subject of male homosexuality in the Heian period. "Sei Shonagon, who would not be likely to remain silent on this subject if it had ever come to her attention does not say a single word about it......" Nothing in the way of specific evidence except an ambiguous episode in "Genji"
Sorry,
M.
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Post by Date Saburou Yukiie on May 4, 2005 19:53:38 GMT -5
Weeeellllllllll - There are a number of drydocked ships full of Portugese and Pirates that we have been dying to attack using a giant Bunraku Octopus and black clad operators...and there is a real fishing lake...I am sure that something can be arranged! ;-) Date
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on May 4, 2005 20:48:07 GMT -5
Although, Date-dono, is there a dock at Pennsic I might hang out on? I always did like a man in uniform! Back off! He's already promised me sake and tea.
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on May 4, 2005 23:44:28 GMT -5
THAT I would dearly love to see!
Don't tell Otagiri-dono. ;->
Makiwara
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on May 5, 2005 0:39:42 GMT -5
[Sniff.]
Tattered and faded, The last of the wisteria Hangs like an old robe Cast off for some novelty, Forgotten in a corner.
M.
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Post by Nagamochi on May 5, 2005 0:57:58 GMT -5
Back off! He's already promised me sake and tea. Now, now Otagiri-dono. There's no need to worry. Never would I dream of stealing such an outstanding specimen like Date from you. (Lol, or would I?....)
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