Placement of Kamon on kosode

[Michimasa]

Would this placement be right ? What size would be ok, something betwing 3 x3 inches and 5 x5 inches ?

membres.lycos.fr/dreuxderouen/kamon/on-kosode.jpg

Michimasa

[AJBryant]

Well, there are a few problems.

The shape of the kosode is modern.

The placement of the kamon is modern.

And the kamon are way too big to be modern.

Other than that...

Effingham

[Michimasa]

Ok let's do it again
First the drawing were took from your file sokutai1.pdf (The garments making up a bukan sokutai) from sca-jml files section. I took the drawing from there because hat was what I had at hands
The placement of the Kamon, I took from a discussion also on sca-jml, but I can't remember what exactly.... it was something about 5 positions, 2 and 3 (2 on from, 3 on back)...

So.... would you have some pictures that would show the proper position and some idea about size ?

Thanks for your help!

Michimasa

[AJBryant]

I took the drawing from there because hat was what I had at hands

That's a different outfit.

The placement of the Kamon, I took from a discussion also on sca-jml, but I can't remember what exactly.... it was something about 5 positions, 2 and 3 (2 on from, 3 on back)..

That is the placement, but it's a modern thing (that is, really something that took off in Edo.

So.... would you have some pictures that would show the proper position and some idea about size ?

The earliest usage I know of is a kosode that was once the property of some guy named Ieyasu -- but it may well date from c. 1611.



This is a typical kosode of the sengoku period:

[Kitadatedenka]

There's Hideyoshi's(?) dofuku that has kamon. And they're about where the picture of the kosode shows.

[Kitadatedenka]

Ah, crap. I went and looked it up. Tsujihahana, plate 2. 'Dobuku with paulownia and arrow-fence design; said to have been owned originally by Toyotomi Hideyoshi. Important Cultural Property. And as he died in 1598, it would indicate that it's right.

There's only a photo from the rear. The crests look fairly large, comprosing about half the width of the sleeve (which is considerably narrower than the body). They are placed at center back, and centered on each sleeve, nearer the shoulder line than anywhere else. Hardly a good example.

A better example are plates 3 and 4. 'Undergarment for armor with design of aoi crests and paulownia on a white ground; given to Inagaki Nagashige in 1590 by Tokugawa Ieyasu'.

This is a front and back view of a shitagi. The crests are placed 3 on the back, as before, and 2 on the front, somewhat closer to the center, rather than being centered on the body panel. Again, the size is approximately half of the somewhat narrow sleeve. It's easier to tell the size here, as the trefoil aoi crest is circular, whereas the previous isn't.

Also see plate 7, for a 'wadded' (semi-quilted) kosode with kamon, that interestingly, also has one at the center of the back fairly close to the hem. Date 1599. From the appendix, the sleeve width is 26 cm, and the crest width is 7 cm, which is close to 2.75" across.

There are other examples in the book, but they are not precisely dated. They just say Keicho period (1596-1615).

Dang it! I don't have time for research right now! But it is nice to find something that Effingham didn't.

(Also, the average of the back body panel width is just shy of 15". Looks like Makiwara and I split the difference, and I couldn't do math in 1984 when the book came out ;D )

[Michimasa]

Well gentlemens I'm a bit confuse... so let me rephrase it again.

In Sengoku period, would a kamon be displayed on garb ?
If so:
- on what garb (underwear, upper garnment, both ?)
- Where would it be place on the garnment
- What average size or proportion of the segment would be appropriate.

Thanks for your patience and help

Michimasa who would like to be as authentic as he can

[Saionji Shonagon]

Kitadatedenka said:

Ah, crap. I went and looked it up. Tsujihahana, plate 2. 'Dobuku with paulownia and arrow-fence design; said to have been owned originally by Toyotomi Hideyoshi. Important Cultural Property. And as he died in 1598, it would indicate that it's right.

You mean this one?



I'll look more tonight when I get home.

She who is playing catch up....

[Saionji Shonagon]

Crap. I can't do this right now:

202.223.183.4/eng/syuzou/index.html is the link to the Hideyoshi garment at the Kyoto National Museum.

Must run, it's payroll day.

M.

[Kitadatedenka]

A thousand pardons, Michimasa-dono. We were geeking out, without thought to the novices...

Here's my researched opinion.

In Sengoku period, would a kamon be displayed on garb ?

Yes, depending on the date. On or after 1590 for sure, earlier is uncertain.

- on what garb (underwear, upper garnment, both ?)

Kosode and dobuku (jacket) for sure, possibly others, but that hasn't yet been shown.

- Where would it be place on the garnment

In the center back, on each sleeve in the rear, and on both body panels in the front.

- What average size or proportion of the segment would be appropriate.

Around 2.75" seems appropriate.

Makiwara-dono:

Yes, that's the one. (image from the link she posted)

[Saionji Shonagon]

<Grin> I swiped the arrow border idea for my "Shoot Me" kosode.

Will take a spin through my books while I launder everything I seem to own tonight (just got back from a whirlwind week on the East Coast). If you're thinking of that "classic" silver-dollar-sized cresting on a solid colored kimono, that's post period.

Now, there's nothing to keep you from creating a nifty textile motif with all or part of your kamon....

M.

[AJBryant]

All those are good examples, but only one that you cite is a kosode -- which is what I'm talking about.

The question becomes, which came first? Mon on the outer clothing, or mon on the inner clothing? Given the myriad examples of heraldic suo, hitatare, kamishimo, and dobuku -- worn over generic kosode -- it clearly went from the outside in.

Only as less and less clothing was being worn (i.e., the move from kamishimo and dobuku as daily leisure wear and the hitatare from daily "duty" wear to just a hakama and kosode), it became more important to put the heraldry where it would be seen -- thus the kosode.

As I said, the process really took off in the Edo period -- although it may well have begun on the cusp of the century.

The simple rule is, if you want to do anything predating 1590, don't use the "five-crest" placement. You will see clothing with an overall and rather random crest pattern, but that's about it. In general terms, at any rate, that would be safest.

Effingham

[Michimasa]

Kitadatedenka, thanks for your detailed responce.

Makiwara,

Now, there's nothing to keep you from creating a nifty textile motif with all or part of your kamon....

Well the few attemps I made with stencil so far is not encouraging Am I to assume that solid color pieces (hakama, kosode... ) are not very period ?

Effingham,

You will see clothing with an overall and rather random crest pattern, but that's about it.

As I just told, I'm not satisfied with my sencil attemps so far, and since finding a fabric with my design already on it is impossible..... I can't imagine doing a all over painting without stencil Embroidery ? Well this could be even longer... would it be period ? If so any WEB reference about the stitch points used

Michimasa

[Kitadatedenka]

What about your stencilling attempts is not encouraging? I've done a bunch of it, and so has Makiwara-dono. We can probably help. It isn't all that difficult.

[Saionji Shonagon]

Well the few attemps I made with stencil so far is not encouraging.

Like anything, it takes a little practice. Ideally, the less paint you use, the better your results will be. Testing on scraps is essential until you get the technique down, and even then, you may sometimes find out that the fabric you're working with either resists the paint or soaks it up like a sponge. If you can describe to me what's happening, perhaps I can help troubleshoot the process.

Am I to assume that solid color pieces (hakama, kosode... ) are not very period ?

.

Not at all. Solids are fine. Don't rule out stripes and plaids either! Check out this detail of a Momoyama period screen - solids, stripes, checks and "particolored" garments all over the place!

tinyurl.com/aa7f6

Embroidery ? Well this could be even longer... would it be period ?

I can't embroider my way out of a wet paper bag with a map and a flashlight, but you might start here:
www.japaneseembroidery.com/

According to my reading, embroidery was around during the Nara period, then it disappeared for quite some time.
It returns in the 16th century, probably via Chinese influences.

M.