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Post by Sakurai Takamori on Jun 10, 2005 12:59:36 GMT -5
Just received a whole slew of fabric from by good lady mother. . .lady wife and I planning a couple of days of sewing to create some basic garb for my first major event of the season (two weeks and counting) Before I start a question or three - go figure...new guy asking more pesky questions..  I have three main colours for kosode...a nice medium blue tone on tone, a plain white (well slightly off white) and a neutral taupe-ish. Was planning to use the off white as the under layer with the taupe and blue as options for top layer. Also have some nice basic black which I was planning for two pairs of hakama..... And here's the main conundrum....I know that whites were usually for undergarments, but were there any restrictions on black? If I make black hakama chances are I will also make a matching kataginu....(they are supposed to match are they not?) If I do will I be breaking some taboo....black for royalty or somesuch? Your thoughts appreciated veejay |
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Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Jun 10, 2005 13:14:01 GMT -5
...If I make black hakama chances are I will also make a matching kataginu... If I do will I be breaking some taboo....black for royalty or somesuch? Well, white is/was reserved for royalty... and the dead... Plain white had a connection with death, or at least the devine so is typically only seen in religious connection. However white backgrounds with colored patterns were common. Generally the color patterns (which were specifically for the formal court outer-robes) black was for the lowest ranks (circa 603-684?) it seemingly dissapeared for formal court outer garments in 685 only to reappear in 1183 and for the fourth rank and higher, and specifically for the Hoeki no ho. Information from Effingham's site: www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/garb.chart_ho_colors.html |
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Jun 10, 2005 13:27:52 GMT -5
Jehanne seems to remember that when she met Takeda-dono he was wearing black, was he not? ;D
M.
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Post by Noriko on Jun 10, 2005 16:53:56 GMT -5
Well, white is/was reserved for royalty... and the dead... Plain white had a connection with death, or at least the devine so is typically only seen in religious connection. However white backgrounds with colored patterns were common. Isn't a white kosode a unisex garment, however? So one could make a white kosode, and a black or blue hakama/over robe combination. Or something like that. I think... Men's garments aren't my area of expertise. |
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Jun 10, 2005 17:50:47 GMT -5
Takeda dono said:
Noriko-hime asked:
I think the confusion is arising from thinking of kosode as underwear vs. as outerwear. A plain white undergarment layer (sometimes refered to as a juban) is certainly acceptable for either sex.
Think about the evolution of the T-shirt. When James Dean appeared in jeans and a white T-shirt with nothing over it, it was a rebellion against the norm because he was wearing his undershirt with nothing over it! It's kind of like the T-shirt. Now, nobody looks twice.
Similarly, in Japan during the Kamakura period, there is a backlash against the decadence of the Imperial Court, so fewer layers become fashionable for women. It's even acceptable to appear in only a (white kosode) and nabagakama. (Fujiwara no Aoi-hime used to tease me about running around in my underwear!)
Modernly, you may see white wedding kimono. I think that's probably a borrowing from Western bridal customs.
Anyway, the answer is that Veejay can use the white for a kosode as long as he's got on another kosode and/or kataginu over it.
M.
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Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Jun 10, 2005 19:23:01 GMT -5
Jehanne seems to remember that when she met Takeda-dono he was wearing black, was he not? ;D Yes I was, however that was a kataginu kamishimo, not the formal bukan sokutai, yes I was running around informally, but I was still in uniform... except for that kilt thing... |
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Jun 10, 2005 20:53:00 GMT -5
Veejay said he was thinking of making a kataginu kamishimo - in black, no?
There was a kilt thing? I don't remember a kilt thing.....
M.
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Post by Sakurai Takamori on Jun 10, 2005 21:46:55 GMT -5
kataginu kamishimo in black...that's the idea (if only because I only have black fabric for the hakama right now and aren't the hakama and kataginu supposed to match when wearing kamashimo.... Kilts?  ? I'm so confused....thought I'd escaped kilts...that's all my shire seems to be vikings and kilties (with me the lone Saxon-turning-Japanese. vj |
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Jun 11, 2005 0:05:44 GMT -5
.....aren't the hakama and kataginu supposed to match when wearing kamashimo.... Referring to Effingham-sensei's webpage since he's far more knowledgeable than I am, "kamishimo" means your tops and bottoms match. That there's a specific word for this indicates that there are times the tops and bottoms don't match. Scroll through here to see examples of a hitatare kamishimo and a kataginu kamishimo. www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/garb.ch02.html Our old friends, the Maple Viewers, can be seen in examples of both at: tinyurl.com/cqr3wM. |
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Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Jun 11, 2005 9:28:37 GMT -5
There was a kilt thing? I don't remember a kilt thing... See there was this silly nanban who insisted on getting his hands on a sword.... he had this absolutley wonderful colored garment called a kilt of imported English wool... a rare luxury for those of us in the provences and away from the trade delegations in Nagasaki... Anyhow he was so weird and so instant I traded him a bone handled sword for it... you know one of the tourist trap junk... Told him it was a Masamune blade... he seemed happy.  |
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Post by Masahide on Jun 13, 2005 11:52:56 GMT -5
Anyhow he was so weird and so instant I traded him a bone handled sword for it... you know one of the tourist trap junk... Told him it was a Masamune blade... he seemed happy. BWAAAAA-HA-HA!!!! I love it!! ;D |
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