adarael
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Mishima no Akikata
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Post by adarael on Jun 15, 2005 1:57:35 GMT -5
This weekend I was up at a friend's house for a family gathering, and said friend's younger sister loaned her a kosode to wear for the evening. Apparently this kosode was 'old' - not terribly old, but like Meiji period old - and had been picked up on e-bay from someone living in Japan. The kosode had a single embroidered mon at the base of the neck, and my friend asked me 'Do you know whose family mon this is?'
I didn't, off the top of my head, but after digging around, I found it. It appears to be the Ashikaga mon. Now, given the propensity of mon to be borrowed and tweaked for personal preference, I couldn't really answer my friend's question about the kosode originally belonging to a member of the Ashikaga family.
What would you say the likelihood of this being an ex-Ashikaga kosode versus a kosode owned by someone who liked the Ashikaga mon? It was the sprig of ginko or whatnot, not the circle with double bar.
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Post by Please Delete on Jun 15, 2005 5:44:28 GMT -5
The chances of it belonging to a member of the Ashikaga is probably about X:Y, where X is the number of Ashikaga in Japan at the time and Y is the total number of people in Japan at the time. In other words, not very likely.
Certain types of garments from certain periods of time you could use this logic to determine whom they might have belonged to. However, it is more likely that a kosode dates to after the Meiji period, if not being Showa or even Heisei. You are now competing with several issues:
1) Many different buke used the same mon. In fact, it appears that it is the combination of mon that they used for public and private use, plus various standards, that were all taken into consideration when determining who was who.
2) Many people would use a mon because they had a connection to someone else who used it or used something similar.
3) In the Meiji period, along with names, people started using whatever mon they liked--since the peasant class hadn't had mon before, they appear to have just taken what they liked.
4) More modernly, you tend to see the various mon of more famous individuals used a lot, even though the person using it has no connection to the actual person in question.
So I couldn't say that it belonged to the Ashikaga family.
-Ii
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Jun 15, 2005 8:24:53 GMT -5
It's OK to call it kimono ("thing to wear") then. The term originated during that period as a way to distinguish between Japanese and Western dress.
There's no way to prove it unless the kimono was found with a sales invoice or cleaning receipt for Ashikaga-san or similar documentation, which has since been kept with the garment. (Can you tell I watch Antiques Roadshow?)
In 1913, the Matsuya Piece-Goods Company issued a catalog of several thousand mon that their customers could pick from to put on their products. It's available from Dover Publications under the title "Japanese Design Motifs."
I'm with Ii-dono on this one.
M.
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adarael
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Mishima no Akikata
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Post by adarael on Jun 15, 2005 14:15:00 GMT -5
I was thinking along the same lines, really, but I didn't wanna make my friend's sister all crestfallen about her possibly-but-probably-not-historically-involved piece of clothing.
Cuz, you know, from everything *I* knew, people shuffled mon around like they were made of candy.
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Post by Date Saburou Yukiie on Jun 15, 2005 15:04:29 GMT -5
Bwa haa haa! Seriously, though, now that we agree it is likely not "The Ashikaga" one could still use the garment to recreat in, if the cut is similar to period clothing. If one has any affiliation at all with the Ashikaga, for instance, if it was "gifted " to you because you provided food and shelter to one of the Shogun's sons during their yearly visit to the temple near you, or something like that...one could plausably defend your possession of it...
Spin Doctor Date
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Jun 15, 2005 17:45:57 GMT -5
Unfortunately, that's a pretty big IF, unless it's court clothing. Unless the wearer is tiny, the proportions are likely to be much narrower than a period kosode and the sleeves would probably need to be re shaped.
Tell your friend it's beautiful and it doesn't matter where it came from. I've bought vintage kimono simply based on that.
Date-dono's gift analysis is, however, a perfectly period spin. Robes were often presented as gifts from one person to another, bequeathed to temples, etc.
M.
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adarael
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Mishima no Akikata
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Post by adarael on Jun 15, 2005 21:06:48 GMT -5
Unfortunately, that's a pretty big IF, unless it's court clothing. Unless the wearer is tiny, the proportions are likely to be much narrower than a period kosode and the sleeves would probably need to be re shaped. Actually, on the young woman in question, it's overlarge - I suppose owing to the fact that she's 5'3" when wearing large boots. One of the things that got my attention is that despite her size, it only goes to slightly below waist level on her, and had the general look of a period kosode (with regards to sleeve size) as opposed to a more modern piece. Of course, neither she nor her sister is a member of the SCA, so I doubt they're too concerned with looking period. <G>
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Post by Please Delete on Jun 15, 2005 21:22:35 GMT -5
Bah. You can use it regardless. It is simply a mon, and in period people appeared to use most mon without hesitation--there are a few that got locked down, such as the chrysanthemum, mainly by tradition. However, it seems that people just took what they fancied and used it.
They might do it because their ancestors did, or because they want to honor someone, but in general it seems that they used what they wanted to.
-Ii
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Post by Nagamochi on Jun 16, 2005 1:17:08 GMT -5
Actually, on the young woman in question, it's overlarge - I suppose owing to the fact that she's 5'3" when wearing large boots. One of the things that got my attention is that despite her size, it only goes to slightly below waist level on her, and had the general look of a period kosode (with regards to sleeve size) as opposed to a more modern piece. Sounds like a haori. Just curious, are the sleeves fully attached? how large is the mon? Is the fabric heavily patterned in some means, possibly with a thin (appx. 2 inches wide) eri? Nagamochi
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adarael
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Post by adarael on Jun 16, 2005 3:20:06 GMT -5
The mon was about an inch or two high (operating solely from memory here, erk). The sleeves were attached for the top half, but not the bottom, nor were they closed on the 'body side'. The fabric had light embroidery on it around the shoulder blades (only on the back), and some light patterning in the internal silk of the sleeves. I don't recall the size of the eri, though.
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Post by greeneel on Jun 25, 2005 19:51:52 GMT -5
i found that same mon on the handle of a knife i got in mexico. not a japanese knife though
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