Matsui Kosode - 1594

[Otagiri Tatsuzou]

www.tangoweb.co.jp/johogura/shiryokan03.html

If I am reading this right, this is a print and reproduction of a kosode worn by Matsui Yohachirou ( 松井与八郎 ) in 1594.

[Takeda Sanjuichiro]

That is a snazzy kosode...

I need to do some better looking kosode myself.

[Saionji Shonagon]

Awesome, I must check this out further when I get home - iconographic evidence of men wearing kosode with shoulder-and-hem decoration!

Except the kataginu in the portrait looks like a later style with the winged shoulders. Hmmmm. Thanks for distracting me at work, Otagiri-dono.

Saionji

[Date Saburou Yukiie]

...and rounded sleeve ends...pseudo-pockets?
Date

[AJBryant]

Except the kataginu in the portrait looks like a later style with the winged shoulders. Hmmmm. Thanks for distracting me at work, Otagiri-dono.

Look again. It's the straight kind, with the forced wrinkling that would evolve into the Edo-style pattern.

Awesome, I must check this out further when I get home - iconographic evidence of men wearing kosode with shoulder-and-hem decoration!

It's a style called "kata-suso" (lit. "shoulder-hem") and one which was very popular from the Muromachi-Momoyama periods. You never see the hem as it was hidded in the hakama most of the time, but that's life.

...and rounded sleeve ends...pseudo-pockets?

Oddly, the reconstruction has "flaps" on the sode (that is, they're not fully connected to the body). From my reading, that's REALLY rare with early kosode. I didn't expect to see that, and there's no evidence in the portrait that this was a feature of the garment.

Effnngham

[Saionji Shonagon]

Look again. It's the straight kind, with the forced wrinkling that would evolve into the Edo-style pattern.

Picky. I DID say I was at work. If it wasn't work they'd call it crazy happy fun time or skippidy do.

Here's an extant kosode with kata suzo that survived as a Noh costume. You can click on the images for enlarged views.
www.emuseum.jp/cgi/pkihon.cgi?SyoID=10&ID=w321&SubID=s000

You never see the hem as it was hidded in the hakama most of the time, but that's life.

Well not on a GUY. Portrait of Oichi no Kata, 16th century. Scanned from Momoyama: Japan's Golden Age by Money Hickman, since I can't find her on the web anywhere.

Crap, my browser isn't showing it. If you have to, go to
www.geocities.com/wodeford/oichinokata.jpg
Isn't she lovely? She's got her uchiki (outermost robe) tied koshimaki fashion around her waist. If you look closely at the layers showing at the collar, there's what looks like kata suzo showing just under the outer white layer. There appear to be matching patterns peeking out at the hems of her layered kosode.

...and rounded sleeve ends...pseudo-pockets?

The sleeves are depicted the same way here. Extant 16th century kosode do have curved sleeves, it may just be that the painters of these portraits are exaggerating it somewhat.

Oddly, the reconstruction has "flaps" on the sode (that is, they're not fully connected to the body). From my reading, that's REALLY rare with early kosode.

While I'm limited to squinting at photos in books and on museum websites, some of the extant ones from the 16th century do appear to have hanging sleeves. How early are we talking? Inquiring minds want to know.

Also the Genre Scenes of the Twelve Months with the kids playing that racket game, from about the same period, shows sleeves in great detail with so many figures with their arms out.

www.tnm.go.jp/en/servlet/Con?pageId=E15&colid=A11090 *

BTW, there is at least one male figure playing who is not wearing hakama, if hairstyle is anything to go by. Wonder if it's Nagamochi-dono???

S.

*moderator edit of freaking long url

[Otagiri Tatsuzou]

makiwara said:

Crap, my browser isn't showing it. If you have to, go to
www.geocities.com/wodeford/oichinokata.jpg
Isn't she lovely?

This is what we see ...
The web site you are trying to access has exceeded its allocated data transfer.

BTW, that's happened a few times in the last week. You're getting popular.

[Please Delete]

Out of curiosity, which one did you think was the male wearing no hakama? I couldn't pick one out that I would say is male, so I'm curious if I am just seeing it differently, or missing it altogether.

-Ii

[Saionji Shonagon]

Out of curiosity, which one did you think was the male wearing no hakama?

I used to think it was a girl, but I now think it's a boy. The girls all appear to have their hair down. His ponytail is caught much higher on the head than a woman would wear hers and he appears to have sideburns. From the top left of the image, it's the third figure in, dark red kosode, in profile with his racket forward, facing the opposite group of three youths in hakama.

You certainly can't tell from facial features!

Saionji

[Saionji Shonagon]

This is what we see ...
The web site you are trying to access has exceeded its allocated data transfer.

Freakin' Geocities.

BTW, that's happened a few times in the last week. You're getting popular.

Infamous, more likely.

Thanks for that edit - my new DSL link is still wonky and for some reason, half the time I try to post an image here it goes straight to the Land of Lost Toys. I MIGHT even forgive you for gloating about lobbing kosode grenades at me less than a month before KWCS.

S.

[Please Delete]

I still think it is a girl. For one, she is dressed like all of the other female figures, including an uchikake, which is really what makes me think that--the garment doesn't look like a dobuku, and it isn't kept closed, so that says 'uchikake' to me, which is only a woman's garment as far as I know. I think it is just a different woman's hairstyle.

[Yvarg]

saionji,

ever considered making a photobucket album? theyre free and fast. if it downsizes the photos then you might wanna upload it on www.imageshack.com/us then upload it to photobucket using the html imageshack gave you =p....i learn from experience