What would these clothes be exactly?

[madyaas]

I'm wondering something. I was reading Dr. Antonio de Morga's account of the Japanese settlers in 1600's Manila, and there's a description of the dress:

They [Japanese] wear their own costume, namely, kimonos of colored silks and cotton, reaching half way down the leg, and open in front; wide, short drawers; close-fitting half-boots of leather, {427} and shoes like sandals, with the soles of well-woven straw. They go bare-headed, and shave the top of the head as far back as the crown. Their back hair is long, and fastened upon the skull in a graceful knot. They carry their catans, large and small, in the belt. They have scant beards, and are a race of noble bearing and behavior. They employ many ceremonies and courtesies, and attach much importance to honor and social standing. They are resolute in any necessity or danger.


NB: We all know that "Kimono" is fairly new, but Morga would've probably called it a robe. His account here was translated and published in 1907.

These would be traders/merchants and mariners discussed here. But, I'm wondering how accurate a description this is? Morga was writing about the history, and would've been fairly careful to give a good description (not exacting, of course, but close since he describes the native dress closely)

So, what would be the typical dress of a 1600's sailor and or merchant/trader? Or, what types of clothing does the description sound like to you?

[Otagiri Tatsuzou]

I'm only guessing, but nothing sounds out of the ordinary here....

madyaas said:

They [Japanese] wear their own costume, namely, kimonos of colored silks and cotton, reaching half way down the leg, and open in front;

Kosode
Given some of the other Edo-period clues, could be Kimono

... wide, short drawers;

Could be ...
Ko-bakama
Momiki
Monpei

close-fitting half-boots of leather,

Kawa-tabi.
I understand that until very recenly fishermen, boatmen, carpenters wore tabi that extended over the ankle.

and shoes like sandals, with the soles of well-woven straw.

Probably waraji.
Possibly zori.

They go bare-headed, and shave the top of the head as far back as the crown. Their back hair is long, and fastened upon the skull in a graceful knot.

Standard Edo-period coiffure.

They carry their catans, large and small, in the belt.

Again standard Edo-period method for wearing swords.

They have scant beards, and are a race of noble bearing and behavior. They employ many ceremonies and courtesies, and attach much importance to honor and social standing. They are resolute in any necessity or danger.

Of course.


Two swords and a top-knot would pretty much nail them as members of the samurai class ... if they were back home in Japan. I recall (from Turnbull?) that there was a samurai family in the Phillipines. Christian exiles if I remember right.

[Takeda Sanjuichiro]

admin said:

I recall (from Turnbull?) that there was a samurai family in the Phillipines. Christian exiles if I remember right.

The exiled daimyo Takayama Ukon, relived of status - 1587, formally banished to the Phillipines - 1614, though the banishment it may have been after the fact, I have seen dates of him in Manila by 1601.

-Takeda

[Please Delete]

I'm wondering if the 'kimono' could alternately be some kind of doubuku or haori, just as a thought?

-Ii

[madyaas]

admin said:

Two swords and a top-knot would pretty much nail them as members of the samurai class ... if they were back home in Japan. I recall (from Turnbull?) that there was a samurai family in the Phillipines. Christian exiles if I remember right.

Oh my, was I mistaken .

Anyway, yes, there was a Samurai in the Philippines int he 1600's. Dom Justo Takayama (born Takayama Ukon), was originally a Daimyo, son of Daimyo Takayama Zusho of Sawa Castle. He converted to Catholicism in 1564, and when the Shogun began persecuting Catholics, he was expelled in 1614 from Nagasaki along with his family and 300 others (on the one boat that went to Manila, the other two went to Macau). They were welcomed in Manila. There's statues for him in both manila (Dilao plaza) and at the Catholic church in Kanazawa.

[Otagiri Tatsuzou]

ii said:

I'm wondering if the 'kimono' could alternately be some kind of doubuku or haori, just as a thought?

Sure. I guess it depends on whether you read that as 'opens in the front' or 'is worn open in the front'. For no particular reason, I chose the former.

[Saionji Shonagon]

Will find you some pictures when I get home - now that I know what box certain books are in!

Saionji

[Saionji Shonagon]

Rats, it's not in the box I thought it was and I'm not sure I'm up to trying to dig it out just now.

Barry, see if you can get your hands on a copy of Samurai William by Giles Milton. Not only is it a good read about William Adams, the English pilot who landed in Japan and ended up serving Tokugawa Ieyasu in the early 1600's (Clavell snatched it for the plot of Shogun), but it had a number of interesting 17th century engravings depictions of the Japanese by Western artists - most likely working from oral descriptions, judging from the interesting artistic leaps they make.

For depictions of namban by Japanese artists, Google "namban art" or "southern barbarians"

www.rekihaku.ac.jp/kikaku/index91/pic14.jpg is an example.

Have you checked out the Kyoto Costume Museum website yet? www.iz2.or.jp/english/

If you go through the menu to "Costume History of Japan" it's set up chronologically.

S.

[Saionji Shonagon]

Aha! Found it. European engravings of the Japanese! Now if I can just remember where they came from. Milton's book does have notes, but there's no easy way for me to identify the source of these engravings. They could be 19th century for all I know!



*

www.geocities.com/gurdymonkey/samwilliam1.jpg

www.geocities.com/gurdymonkey/samwilliam2.jpg

Now, to break down some boxes!

S.

*moderator edit to fix some image tags

[madyaas]

makiwara said:

Aha! Found it. European engravings of the Japanese! Now if I can just remember where they came from. Milton's book does have notes, but there's no easy way for me to identify the source of these engravings. They could be 19th century for all I know!

Interesting how how both Europeans and Japanese portrayed each other. I especially love how the Europeans get a Japanese look to their faces in the Namban pictures, while the Japanese get a stocky big boned look in the European pictures. In the Philippines, they used Chinese artists to draw the natives:

[Saionji Shonagon]

Interesting how how both Europeans and Japanese portrayed each other.

Definitely. You can see the artists struggling to figure out to depict things that they're just plain not used to seeing.
Men with shaved heads wearing "dresses!" Or maybe they're dipping into their imaginations for the most exotic images they can whip up because that sells engravings! Fascinating.

Which reminds me, I picked up a copy of one of those great Dover coloring books on Japanese costume recently. It's obvious to me that the illustrator worked from the exhibits (or pictures of the exhibits) at the Kyoto Costume Museum - I recognize the images right down to the poses. It's also obvious from her descriptions that she doesn't know HOW to describe them. Women in hakama or nabagakama are described as wearing "skirts" because that's what she think's she's seeing.

This is one of the things we run into a lot when reading translated descriptions. As you'll discover as you hang around here, the Japanese are past masters at having very specialized vocabulary for certain things. Juban, hitoe, kosode, uwagi, uchiki, suikan, kariginu - a translator may just throw his hands in defeat and go "Fine, it's a robe already!"

Since I know you're local, I'll mention that the Asian Art Museum in SF has a namban screen in its collection. However, they rotate certain works around to keep them from overexposure to light, etc. and there's no guarantee it'll be on display if you happen to visit.

In the Philippines, they used Chinese artists to draw the natives:

Neat, thanks for sharing. If I think of anything else, I'll toss it out.

Saionji

[madyaas]

makiwara said:

Interesting how how both Europeans and Japanese portrayed each other.

Definitely. You can see the artists struggling to figure out to depict things that they're just plain not used to seeing.
Men with shaved heads wearing "dresses!" Or maybe they're dipping into their imaginations for the most exotic images they can whip up because that sells engravings! Fascinating.

A good example is in the image above. While the women's outfit is mostly correct, her skirt should be a bit shorter, since the tribes today that wear the old clothing have patadyong/saya above the ankle (not useful when walking around in the wet season). She should also have a tapis (a piece of cloth wrapped around the waist). Her coat looks to be about right, but it should be closer fitting and a bit shorter.

The man's outfit is somewhat right, but his lower garment would probably be a bahag (a loincloth which has ends extending front and back and of beautiful textiles). He looks to be wearing a more muslim outfit (the Islam spread as far north as Manila by the time the Spanish got there, and those are two Tagalogs (the native group who lived in and around the Manila area). However, he looks to be wearing the short breeches, which if that's what they should be, should be tighter (still loose, but more akin to bicycle shorts than swim trunks). Usual descriptions were a coat, but a shirt isn't uncommon, since the Bagobo wear a similar outfit, and they all have shirts not coats. Either way, these outfits were never solid colors, always a striped textile and embroidered and studded with beads and shells.

He is wearing red, which means that the model must have been a chief (only chiefs wore red). His putong (head band) indicates he's killed a man, which any chief should have accomplished.

This is one of the things we run into a lot when reading translated descriptions. As you'll discover as you hang around here, the Japanese are past masters at having very specialized vocabulary for certain things. Juban, hitoe, kosode, uwagi, uchiki, suikan, kariginu - a translator may just throw his hands in defeat and go "Fine, it's a robe already!"

Of course, I'm betting a lot of modern Japanese probably don't know a lot of the terms . Either way, you're right, a translator is likely to just give up in the face of items they don't know.

Since I know you're local, I'll mention that the Asian Art Museum in SF has a namban screen in its collection. However, they rotate certain works around to keep them from overexposure to light, etc. and there's no guarantee it'll be on display if you happen to visit.

Oh man, all the times I've been to San Francisco, I haven't been to that museum. I'll keep it in mind if we ever make our way to it.

[Saionji Shonagon]

Of course, I'm betting a lot of modern Japanese probably don't know a lot of the terms .

Three years of this and I know lots of Japanese nouns. No verbs. Just nouns, mostly to do with clothing. And armor. You can't NOT learn about armor around here. ;->

Silly way to pick up a foreign language, if you ask me.

Either way, you're right, a translator is likely to just give up in the face of items they don't know.

Oh man, all the times I've been to San Francisco, I haven't been to that museum. I'll keep it in mind if we ever make our way to it.

It's on Larkin Street, right around the corner from the Civic Center. They have a website: www.asianart.org and it's worth checking their calendar as they often have special events in connection with their exhibitions. Next Sunday they're demonstrating traditional Japanese block printing, for example.

Except sometimes they do stupid things - like display a jinbaori (a sort of vest that a samurai warlord might wear over armor in the field) in a case with the BACK of it to the wall. The guard must've thought I was having some weird seizure - I'm wedged against the side of the case with my back against the wall muttering imprecations because I could see there was some sort of applique-work on it but I couldn't see it well enough! (Sigh. I am such a nerd.)

Saionji