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Post by Suzaku on Jan 9, 2005 4:19:56 GMT -5
I was curious, before the Dutch and/or Portuguese first arrived in Japan, what would happen to a young woman of middle class if she was not arranged to be married?
I've been told that After the Europeans came, and christianity was introduced, a young woman could join a convent and become a nun. Is this true, or was this just botched history?
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Post by yoshida on Jan 9, 2005 12:04:00 GMT -5
Didn't Tomoe Gozen become a nun?
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Saionji Shonagon
New Member
One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Jan 9, 2005 13:54:50 GMT -5
Didn't Tomoe Gozen become a nun? I'm finding differing fates ascribed to her. However, she lived several centuries before Christian missionaries arrived in Japan, so if she did retire from the world, it would've been as a Buddhist nun. Makiwara
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Post by Suzaku on Jan 10, 2005 22:19:03 GMT -5
I'm finding differing fates ascribed to her. However, she lived several centuries before Christian missionaries arrived in Japan, so if she did retire from the world, it would've been as a Buddhist nun. Makiwara sou ka? ^^;; i didn't know that Buddhists had nuns. ;D well i've learned something new. Thanks for info! another question i have pertains more towards weapons; did the Japanese have firearms/rifles before or after the Europeans arrived? I'm pretty sure it wasn't until after trade opened between Japan and Europe that Firearms were introduced, but they did have a knowledge of fireworks because of their close relationship with the chinese... but my timelines have been pretty screwy lately and I keep getting different answers from any research I've done, so i'm asking those who would know best.
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Jan 10, 2005 22:51:23 GMT -5
Buddhist nuns - yes. Christian nuns - not in Japan (There were tens of thousands of Christians for a few decades in the 1500s but I have not read of any Japanese convents). Middle Class? Medieval Japan is a feudal agricultural society. Probably about 90% peasant - 5% aristocracy/samurai - 5% everyone else (priests, doctors, entertainers, outlaws, etc). During the 1500s that is beginning to change as urban populations begin to grow, but not by much.
Firearms came with the Portugese and Spanish. Gunpowder would be known about from China before then but I am not aware of any use of it in Japan before the Europeans came.
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Post by Suzaku on Jan 10, 2005 23:08:02 GMT -5
Buddhist nuns - yes. Christian nuns - not in Japan (There were tens of thousands of Christians for a few decades in the 1500s but I have not read of any Japanese convents). Ok, that makes sence. I knew that there were nuns, but I didn't know that Buddhism had nuns, and someone had told me that they were Christians. Middle Class? Medieval Japan is a feudal agricultural society. Probably about 90% peasant - 5% aristocracy/samurai - 5% everyone else (priests, doctors, entertainers, outlaws, etc). During the 1500s that is beginning to change as urban populations begin to grow, but not by much. Ah, I'm sorry I didn't use the right terminology, I guess it was an automatic term from being more familiar with the European Medieval socal structure. I guess I should rephrase the question to; what would happen to a young lady who was the daughter of, say, a merchent, or a lower-class Samurai? ((I'm hoping this might be more applicable to the Japanese medieval society.)) I just wanna know more about this because I don't want to have a very high ranking persona, but I want to be able to Look Japanese, which is usually is associated with 'kimonos' and white painted faces. ^^;; it might sound a bit newbie-ish, but I do want to learn as much as I can so I can truely re-enact a Japanese Medieval persona properly.
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Jan 10, 2005 23:30:27 GMT -5
I guess I should rephrase the question to; what would happen to a young lady who was the daughter of, say, a merchent, or a lower-class Samurai? ((I'm hoping this might be more applicable to the Japanese medieval society.)) Of what use are daughters if not to marry them off and get grandchildren? You are going to have to choose whether you are at the Emperor's Court or not. If you are, then you are at Kyoto and are in some sense a courtier. If not, you might be the daughter of a samurai landlord - someone who oversees, manages, and collects taxes for an absentee "owner." During the 11th-13th century, women had some rights to inherit such "landlord" positions and might manage an estate in her own name. As the samurai-military govenment continued, they tended to loose such rights. Samurai families were quite extended. A determined woman might be able to visit relatives for many years all across Japan before being cornered into matrimony. A woman might choose to become a nun to avoid marriage, but such a choice is almost literally the same as renouncing her family. She is "dead to the world." More typical, is for a woman to retire to a convent upon the passing of her husband. I wish I had more information for you ... but I don't.
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Post by Suzaku on Jan 10, 2005 23:40:48 GMT -5
Of what use are daughters if not to marry them off and get grandchildren? *chuckles* that's what my brother keeps telling me whenever we disagree at an event... though he's paid for it later.... ;D You are going to have to choose whether you are at the Emperor's Court or not. If you are, then you are at Kyoto and are in some sense a courtier. If not, you might be the daughter of a samurai landlord - someone who oversees, manages, and collects taxes for an absentee "owner." During the 11th-13th century, women had some rights to inherit such "landlord" positions and might manage an estate in her own name. As the samurai-military govenment continued, they tended to loose such rights. Samurai families were quite extended. A determined woman might be able to visit relatives for many years all across Japan before being cornered into matrimony. *nods* I guess that is the biggest choice I have to make - to be a courtier or not... I might have to attempt to become one simply because my brother isn't as interested in the Japanese culture as I am, and we attend events together, so if I were a courtier I would have a higher chance of knowing a European sailor/trader/whatever I wish I had more information for you ... but I don't. no,no, milord, you've been a big help and I thank you for it *bows deeply*
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Jan 10, 2005 23:51:18 GMT -5
*nods* I guess that is the biggest choice I have to make - to be a courtier or not... I might have to attempt to become one simply because my brother isn't as interested in the Japanese culture as I am, and we attend events together, so if I were a courtier I would have a higher chance of knowing a European sailor/trader/whatever I do not bother trying to rationalize why all these gaijin are around me. It just is. What can you do about it? But a courtier is less likely to know European foreigners. For the most part, the Europeans were kept far away from the Imperial Court. On the other hand, courtiers are more likely to know Chinese foreigners since there were semi-formal relationships between Japan and China.
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Post by Suzaku on Jan 10, 2005 23:57:09 GMT -5
But a courtier is less likely to know European foreigners. For the most part, the Europeans were kept far away from the Imperial Court. On the other hand, courtiers are more likely to know Chinese foreigners since there were semi-formal relationships between Japan and China. Ah, ok. ^^;; i guess I really have to do alot more in-depth research before I'm really ready to have a Japanese persona. But this has really given me a good start.
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Jan 11, 2005 22:28:48 GMT -5
Middle Class? Medieval Japan is a feudal agricultural society. Probably about 90% peasant - 5% aristocracy/samurai - 5% everyone else (priests, doctors, entertainers, outlaws, etc). During the 1500s that is beginning to change as urban populations begin to grow, but not by much. I hope you will forgive my overstatement ... I am a country samurai who has never visited the capitol, but I have done some asking around. In the year 1000ad, Kyoto is estimated to have a population of 175,000. That is a big city. Big enough that there I cannot doubt that there must be some form of a "middle class" in existance. All the amenities of a city must have been available ... specialized shops, food markets, restaurants, hotels and bars ... retailers, wholesalers, bankers, lawyers, and theives of all kinds. Civil war decimated Kyoto in the mid-1400s and the size of the city shrank, but by 1700 it is over 200,000. Also, the rapid production of firearms in the 16th century indicate mass production. In some sense, factories are producing goods. So I may have overstated the agricultural nature of medieval Japan. But not by too much. The rough percentages offered before are probably still more right than wrong until the Edo period. All these city-folk who aren't samurai fit into the 5%.
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Post by Hiroda Ujio on Jan 20, 2005 12:33:21 GMT -5
Suzaku,
I would have to agree with Otagiri-san that trying to explain why you're around all these Europeans would be frivilous. Although my housemates like to joke that i fell asleep on my fishing boat and woke up in Denmark (buncha vikings).
The easiest thing i can tell you is this, keep it simple. I have a name, a year, and a location, after that the only people that know anything beyond that are other japanese persona, and THAT is when you'll have to know your stuff.
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Post by Masahide on Jan 20, 2005 13:57:18 GMT -5
I would have to agree with Otagiri-san that trying to explain why you're around all these Europeans would be frivilous. Although my housemates like to joke that i fell asleep on my fishing boat and woke up in Denmark (buncha vikings). I actually thought long and hard on this. The simplest solution came to me based on the nature of the Society itself. I was forced to leave Japan, and after traveling for a time found myself in the Outlands. Now as everyone that I interact with agrees where the Outlands is, and all of them agree you won't find it on period maps, I don't let the "low contact between Japan and Europe in period" issue bother me. This also explains why I am making much of my own equipment/clothing, or having it specially made, and why it is sometimes not "up to snuff" with Japanese period practices. After all, how many armorers in the Outlands know how to make a proper do maru? But each time I get a local artisan to make something for me, I can have them correct their earlier mistakes and get closer to something I would be able to get were I still home in Japan. After all, you can only expect so much from gaijin. Masahide
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AJBryant
New Member
甲冑師 katchuu-shi
Posts: 1,972
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Post by AJBryant on Jan 20, 2005 15:03:38 GMT -5
Suzaku-dono:
Have you seen my website? (See my sig. below). You might find some information useful to you.
As for guns... there is some evidence that there actually were guns in Japan prior to 1542 -- bronze hand-cannons of Chinese manufacture -- but they were in very limited use and not really very accurate, popular, or well-known. I rather think they were actually launchers for fire-arrows (essentially mobile launching platforms for incendiary rockets).
Did you know that Suzaku was one of the 10th-century emperors of Japan, ruling during the rebellion of Taira no Masakado?
Tony
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Post by Suzaku on Jan 20, 2005 23:07:16 GMT -5
I hope you will forgive my overstatement ... I am a country samurai who has never visited the capitol, but I have done some asking around. In the year 1000ad, Kyoto is estimated to have a population of 175,000. That is a big city. Big enough that there I cannot doubt that there must be some form of a "middle class" in existance. All the amenities of a city must have been available ... specialized shops, food markets, restaurants, hotels and bars ... retailers, wholesalers, bankers, lawyers, and theives of all kinds. Civil war decimated Kyoto in the mid-1400s and the size of the city shrank, but by 1700 it is over 200,000. Also, the rapid production of firearms in the 16th century indicate mass production. In some sense, factories are producing goods. So I may have overstated the agricultural nature of medieval Japan. But not by too much. The rough percentages offered before are probably still more right than wrong until the Edo period. All these city-folk who aren't samurai fit into the 5%. Ahhhh, neat! ^_^ perhaps I could base my persona on being a merchent's daughter, which could also give me a possibility of traveling, not a high possibility because women weren't allowed such luxeries, but it still gives me a chance...... And I have taken everyone's advice to not worry about the whys and wherefors of how i came to be where I am, but to just have the basics. *chuckles* Who knows, I might find a way to tie my european and japanese persona's together in some interesting way.... don't know how well that would work, or how widely accepted it would be, but it would be interesting to try if only for a small period of time... ^^;;;
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