Kiyoshige
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Hosokawa Genshichirou Kiyoshige
Posts: 33
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Post by Kiyoshige on Jun 12, 2005 7:14:42 GMT -5
OK so I was wondering if I could go through whatever reason or reasons my name would or would not go through the SCA powers that be.
Gengetsu no Kiyoshi
Gengetsu = Crescent Moon
no = of
Kiyoshi = quiet or pure...I prefer quiet
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Jun 12, 2005 12:25:57 GMT -5
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Post by Masahide on Jun 13, 2005 12:12:57 GMT -5
Gengetsu-dono,
Was this a question on if you think it will pass, or a question on why it didn't pass? If there was a ruling, it would provide some additional information on why it was rejected, which would help with further research.
If this is just a "I like this name, can I document it?" type quesiton, let me know, and I'll look through my book and see what I can get for you.
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Kiyoshige
New Member
Hosokawa Genshichirou Kiyoshige
Posts: 33
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Post by Kiyoshige on Jun 14, 2005 16:01:10 GMT -5
Makiwara-hime,
I have looked through these resources, but I thank you for recommending them.
Masahide-dono,
It is a question of will it pass. I have not submitted it yet.
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Post by Please Delete on Jun 14, 2005 21:20:38 GMT -5
Well, the reasons it wouldn't pass on first glance is because you are trying to create a sentence, rather than a name, it would appear. I recommend checking out: www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/names.htmlScroll down to the family names section and choose one you like. Next, pick a 'zokumyo'. This is literally the 'given name' as it is the name you are given, often related to something as simple as birth order. Hiraizumi no Ason's page gives a good list of easy zokumyo and various prefixes. Finally, choose your 'famous' name--the 'nanori'. This is the name that your deeds get recorded under (rather like Ieyasu, Hideyoshi, Nobunaga, Nobumitsu, Naomasa, etc.). Here is where you will do the most 'combination work' for names, by choosing two characters that work together. If you have an understanding of Japanese names and Japanese, this might not be difficult. However, I still find it best to find actual names and try to mimic their usage as best as possible. Those are my recomendations. Sorry if I'm more blunt than usual--I think that you look like you are on a good start, but I don't think that those particular elements are going to pass as they are. If you really like them, though, you can end up finding most of those elements in various names that would be perfectly acceptable. E.g.: Fujiwara Gentaro Kiyomori (I couldn't fit 'moon' because I couldn't easily find it as a character in men's names in period, although that isn't to say it can't be found.) -Ii Saburou Katsumori
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Post by Masahide on Jun 20, 2005 23:20:27 GMT -5
Konban wa, Not terribly successful with this name. I was able to find the following: These are different, based on the different kanji used. Kiyoshige = Pure Being or Pure Existance dated to 1332 as a Nanori in Solveig p. 268. Kiyoshige = Pure Seriousness dated to 1183 as a Nanori in Solveig p. 283 I couldn't find anything similar to Gengetsu in Solveig. So basically, as written, without providing other documentation, you will probably not be able to get this passed. As far as I can tell, it also doesn't follow the standard naming convention for males during the period. I hope this was at least marginally helpful.
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Kiyoshige
New Member
Hosokawa Genshichirou Kiyoshige
Posts: 33
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Post by Kiyoshige on Jun 22, 2005 8:52:05 GMT -5
After re-reading Effingham's site again, I found this paragraph - Those desiring to simply identify themselves as being of a particular place will make use of the “no” particle. The form, given a man who, in English, would be named Jirô of Mutsu, would be Mutsu no Jirô. Remember that the rule is, the “possessor” — or larger element — comes first; in this case, the province of Mutsu. Now from what I have found Gengetsu means Crescent Moon and since I live in the Shire of the Crescent Moon I figured this could possibly be acceptable. How many names are registered using the SCA location as part of the name? So why can't I do the same but in Japanese? poets.notredame.ac.jp/cgi-bin/jedi <--- web address to where I found Gengetsu Domo Arigato for the responses I have received thus far.
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Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Jun 22, 2005 12:49:22 GMT -5
...How many names are registered using the SCA location as part of the name? So why can't I do the same but in Japanese?... It is not a matter that you cannot call yourself XXX-no-YYY, using a translation of your shire as XXX; but that the words you are choosing to use are not the best translations. An example, some translations meaning crescent moon are: EN-GETSU, GEN-GETSU, hantsuki, JOU-GEN, mikazuki. Also, those examples would need additional elements to be place names. Your shire is not named "Crescent Moon", it is "The Shire of Crescent Moon". So to keep proper grammar it would be something like: JOU-GEN-CHOU, or Mikazuki-machi, Mikazuki-han. It may seem we and the CoA is really nit-picky about Japanese names, in one sense they are. While it might be an acceptable western name to register "Bob of Goatville" (the Japanese version being Goatville-no-Bob") this would not have been a proper, legal Japanese name, it would simply be an different way of indicating a person. (Caviat, it might be proper if you were a commoner, since commoners did not have family names.) A proper man's name consisted of a family/clan name, a given name, and a famous name; as was pointed out earlier. As Ii-dono and Masahide pointed out, Kiyoshi is not a proper name; (I believe the reason is "kiyo" is not compatible with "SHI" because of the diffrences in sino- and japanese- pronunciations of characters) However Kiyomori, Kiyomasa, Kiyotaka, Kiyoshige, Yoshikiyo and many more would be correct. Also you would still have to pick your given name. (zokumyo) When you have a name like say: Ishida Gentaro Kiyomasa, it would be acceptale to then use, "Mikazuki-han no Kiyomasa", especially if that is followed by your rank designation, that is quite acceptable for early period use. But remember it would not actualy be your legal name, it would be akin to saying "Lord Robert, Baron of Goatville" Hope this clears some of this up.
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Post by Please Delete on Jun 22, 2005 19:42:48 GMT -5
Agreed completely with Takeda-dono. It would be one thing to take an actual place name as part of your name--locatives are often found in names to describe someone from a place--but I would never suggest registering the Japanese translation of a SCAdian place as part of your name. I wouldn't recommend it to someone with a European name. I think that it is a silly practice forced on some people because of the CoH's rule of not conflicting with someone else's name.
What you should do, imho, is just register the actual name: Family, Clan name, Common name, Famous name, etc. Then just add descriptors as desired. For example, I am Ii Saburou Katsumori (the name I registered). But I may also sign posts as:
Ushikawa no Ii Katsumori Ii Katsumori Ushikawa no Bunka bugyou (when I was MoAS for Stierbach) Ushikawa no Ii Roku-i Ii Roku-i Katsumori etc.
It all depends on what I am doing at the time.
Another reason not to register 'Gengetsu' (Actually, it should be 'Gingetsu' or 'Gintzuki' probably) is that: are you sure that is where you will be for the rest of your time in the SCA? Groups sometimes change names or break into smaller groups. Or people move to a different area and a different group. Just another thought.
-Ii
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Kiyoshige
New Member
Hosokawa Genshichirou Kiyoshige
Posts: 33
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Post by Kiyoshige on Jun 23, 2005 13:27:41 GMT -5
So given all this info then, how about this?
Hosokawa no Genshiciro Kiyoshige
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Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Jun 23, 2005 14:34:18 GMT -5
So given all this info then, how about this? ... Hosokawa no Genshiciro Kiyoshige I take it you mean Hosokawa Genshichiro Kiyoshige. It is quite acceptable, when you go to submit it you will leave out the particle "no" since in the basic format "no" is a spoken, not written element. (I know, it is confusing, but that is how the CoH is accepting it.)
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AJBryant
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甲冑師 katchuu-shi
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Post by AJBryant on Jun 23, 2005 16:08:37 GMT -5
I've already been over this with the CoA.
It *is* a written element -- when using kana. It's not when in kanji, as there is, functionally, no "name" kanji element using it. But if you look up any of those names (e.g., Minamoto no Yoritomo or Taira no Kiyomori) in Japanese encyclopedia, next to their name in kanji it's all spelled out in hiragana complete with the "no".
It's like reading Chinese text in Japanese -- all the Japanese verb and adjective endings, etc., aren't "written" in the kanji-fied text, but they're known to be there, and when the text is fully pointed (that is, with all the Japanese pronunciation hints included) all those kana are there.
There is a bigger point, though -- that "no" is only used for locatives and nicknames, or for EARLY names when the attached surname is actually an uji (that is, a clan name) rather than a normal surname. By the fifteenth century, even "Fujiwara" had become so diluted to be a surname rather than a functional uji, and while you had people like Fujiwara no Yasuhira in the 12th century, but in the sixteenth you have Fujiwara Seika instead.
Hosokawa was not an uji, and should not have "no."
Effingham
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Kiyoshige
New Member
Hosokawa Genshichirou Kiyoshige
Posts: 33
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Post by Kiyoshige on Jun 23, 2005 17:02:12 GMT -5
ok so no to the no - no is no-no
I knew with you guys help I'd get this figured out.
Domo Arigato
Hosokawa Genshichiro Kiyoshige
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Post by Please Delete on Jun 23, 2005 18:42:26 GMT -5
FYI, I really like your choice here. Nice, looks good. I salute you, Hosokawa-dono!
-Ii
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Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Jun 24, 2005 20:32:28 GMT -5
BTW here is what seems to be the most common period form of your name:
×ì Hosokawa Œ³Žµ˜N Genshichirou ´¬ Kiyoshige
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