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Post by Kinoshita Takemitsu on Oct 5, 2004 15:03:50 GMT -5
I've got an idea for forming a group that trains together...
any advice as far as field tactics go...
I'd also like to come up with a 'clan' symbol to wear from Sashimonos... that way we could spot each other redily in combat...
i'd like it to be primarily Japanese... for the purpose of improving our Katana, and naginata skills...
somthing focused on being flankers
I live in the Barony of Darkwater in central Trimaris
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Oct 5, 2004 18:48:47 GMT -5
I think its a great idea. I posted the Zouhyou Monogatari information as a starting point for ashigaru protrayal. Forming a fighting unit, as opposed to a clan, could concentrates your energy on the armor&stuff without worrying about the "political overhead" that might come with forming a clan.*
The hard part (at least out here in the Outlands) will be finding the fighters. You might have to "grow your own."
*There are some very successful and lasting clans. This is not meant as a slight to them in any way.
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Post by Kinoshita Takemitsu on Oct 5, 2004 20:23:25 GMT -5
maybe 'clan' was a bad name for it...
moslty just a Mon that all the fighters share on the Sashimono... that way they'd be easily spotted in the chaos of combat that happens in melees
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Post by Hiroda Ujio on Oct 5, 2004 23:09:22 GMT -5
Here's my two Koku on this subject. Unit cohesion is the greatest asset that you are going to have on the melee field. The better you are at it, the easier it is to kill the enemy. That having been said, fighting purely with a katana seems to me to be the opposite of cohesion. Any spearmen worth their salt are going to obliderate your katana at an average of 10 to 11 feet away (including an average arm length). Any polearms worth their salt are going to do the same thing at around 8 to 9 feet away. Let's say that the average katana is around 4 or 5 feet, that means that you would have to travel a minimum of 3 feet inside my weapons range BEFORE you could begin to do any damage. This is probably the reason why katana were backup weapons and not primary weapons like hollywood would like us to believe. Here's what i would do: Ditch the katana, i wouldn't even take them as a backup weapon, the best thing would be a wakazashi or a tanto. I would then run about a fifty-fifty mix of naginata and yari. Set your naginata to run defence for the yari's (aka knocking down shots, keeping shields at bay, charge suppression). I would even put a No-dachi on each end of the line to pick up flankers/dedicated defence. Having that been said; if you run a 100% pure mass weapon group, expect to be charged 99.9% of the time. Your greatest threat isn't going to be from spears and glaives, it will be from shieldmen. Learn to fight on the run and regroup on instinct. That's trying to run a full line, running a flank is a somewhat similar story. Katana wouldn't be bad, but six foot Naginata or No-dachi's would probably be better. It would give you a bit more range to play with. Keep in mind that at least one Yari wouldn't hurt. A good person on a Yari will hit those opportunities that open up when your naginata's throw at those shieldsman's heads (and as most will choose to block with thier shields, covering their heads) effectively leaving your Yari with a multitude of gut shots. I just noticed the length of this reply....sorry for the rambling, but as you can tell, melee fighting is my interest. So there you have it...i fully expect this post to be torched. ;D Hiroda Ujio
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Iriye
New Member
Posts: 56
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Post by Iriye on Oct 6, 2004 1:14:31 GMT -5
Why would someone torch you? A little twitchy, sir?
From the bit of reading I have done, and my military experience, there are levels of operation during which certain weapons/tactics may be more/less effective: Theater of Operations (the big picture), comprising the entire army; each Area of Operations, comprising the specific targets assigned to each battalion & concerns the specific topography to be used to advantage and whose disadvantages you want to minimize, and utilize long range weaponry: cannons, archers, trebuchets ---- modern warfare allows us to fight at greater distances that the flight of an arrow. The next level down, company level, has the mission of securing territory, buildings and natural obstacles like hills and rivers. Again, modern warfare allows us to join in conflict at some distance with better guns, superior ammunition, and grenades. The closer to the individual enemy one gets, you see the reversion to 'primitive' instruments of destruction -- knives, cutting blades, hands, clubs.....
When you want to lay out an ambush, or to be sneaky while creeping up on your quarry, I can see why one may not want a naginata in hand, for it seems to take longer to wield to effect just because of its length.
I can visualize a naginata being particularly effective in flicking hats off (is kabuto the correct term?), getting up under arms and between legs; and from horseback, it'd seem to be like one of those old-fashioned can openers with the hooks you 'walked' around the edge of the can with. I saw a picture once, with a picture of a warrior, standing in his stirrups, and using the naginata over the front of the head of his horse.The captions said something to the effect that this tactic helped create openings for foot troops to get through. I may be totally hallucinating, but if I ever come across it again in this lifetime, I'll mention it at the next class reunion.
What was the point? Oh. That. just that a midrange weapon might not be easily handled close in, and one would do well to be prepared for the close-in fighting. So I guess my only disagreement with your strategy would be that I'd want to hang onto my shorter pieces and employ them when the time is right, pending of course, that I haven't been struck down by that point.
Interesting thoughts, lad. I wonder, too, if one is as limited in tactics as in equipment by the 'period' requirements. Or are we limited by what our leadership thinks up? Curiosity abounds.....
Rizii
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Post by Makiwara on Oct 6, 2004 9:35:59 GMT -5
Interesting thoughts, lad. I wonder, too, if one is as limited in tactics as in equipment by the 'period' requirements. Or are we limited by what our leadership thinks up? Curiosity abounds..... We are limited by the combat standards of the SCA and/or its kingdoms. After all, while we want to "kill" our friends, we don't really want to KILL our friends. Makiwara
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Hanzo
New Member
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Post by Hanzo on Oct 6, 2004 13:12:58 GMT -5
Remember history. Japanese were primarily archers, then spear and polearms fighters, and mostly on horseback. The old tachi was more a backup weapon in case the horse get killed and there was no other choice.
Katana is not a good weapon for field melee. Because of the range problem expressed by HirodaUjio. However, a small katana unit in a wood battle can do a lot if they are swift and targeting lonely spear unit. That's what our unit "The Northern Sentinels" do. The Naginata is definately my weapon of choice in a melee because of its polyvalence. In my opinion a japanese unit should concentrate in spear, polearm and combat archery.
I saw pictures of Sir Ogami in action on the field battle of Pennsic with a katana, but his own unit around him and well... it's Ogami Sama........
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Post by Kinoshita Takemitsu on Oct 6, 2004 15:48:07 GMT -5
the oly probelm i can see with using 50/50 yari/naginata would be close range... the longer a weapon is in the SCA the harder it is to defend up close...
i've never seen a shield in any of the Japanese pics that i've seen... it takes time for you to switch weapons at close range...
i'm thinking one Katana to every 3 Yari/Naginata have them focused on defending themselves and the people behind them... then use the Yari/naginatas to elimanate people from long range...
the problem with applying period japanese tactics to the SCA is no horses... something as a middle ground has to be obtained to be effective...
so basically i'm suggesting 1 katana, 2 Yairs, and 1 Naginata per formation... this will give you a well rounded team...
in basic tactics i would advise against standing and slugging... the purpose of a unit of this kind would have to be to flank the enemy as they engage your shield wall...
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Oct 6, 2004 19:04:14 GMT -5
We are limited by the combat standards of the SCA and/or its kingdoms. After all, while we want to "kill" our friends, we don't really want to KILL our friends. Makiwara We are limited by those standards only when we participate in SCA combat. One can imagine non-SCA meetings with LARPS. Or drilling with the 5.5 meter spears of Oda Nobunaga.
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Oct 6, 2004 19:08:16 GMT -5
so basically i'm suggesting 1 katana, 2 Yairs, and 1 Naginata per formation... this will give you a well rounded team... One could train as a mixed weapons group intending to fight as a standalone unit. The above mix is a good one. I think that it is common SCA terminology to call such a 5-7 man unit a 'lance.' Alternately, you could all train in a common weapon such a 9' spear as a speciality unit to be used in war scenarios. In this case, you depend on others to provide flanking protection and shield men when needed.
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Post by raito on Oct 8, 2004 8:33:18 GMT -5
I, and those who fight me, might dispute that longer weapons have poor defense, though it is true, that compared to sword and shield, there is less offense up close while heavily defending. At this spring's border skirmish, I spent quite a lot of time chest to chest with shieldmen, and I wasn't dying with my yari. At Pennsic, while defending the main gate from the front line, I had my yari, and most of that time was chest to chest. If you can't defend effectively in close, then I submit that you have a gap in your training.
That said, that's the point unit cohesion comes in. If a get charged by a shield, and bind him up, I expect that one of my buddies is going to get the kill.
If there's more than 2 on one, then it's time for the track shoes.
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Oct 8, 2004 14:14:54 GMT -5
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Post by Kinoshita Takemitsu on Oct 8, 2004 17:12:48 GMT -5
the formation i'm thinking of is a wedge one Katana and Wakazashi person at the point of the formation to his/her right and left and slightly back are Naginata fighters derectly behind him/her are the two Yari fighters
The Katana fighter's jobs are to protect the Yari fighters from long range attacks and to bind up shield fighters up close
the naginata fighters' jobs are to protect the flank of the Katana figter from long range strikes and to protect the yari fighter on his side
the yari fighters' jobs are to elimanate threats to the formation both long range and close range (meaning tied up with the katana fighter and Naginata fighters... one of them directs the formation (usually the one with the loudest voice and the best grasp of highspeed combat)... the other is his/her backup...
this formation is supposed to fight on the trot
should the katana fighter be eliminated (he/she'll probably be the first to die) the naginata fighter on the unengaged side should take the point and then the formation switches to a box one yari paired with a naginata fighter...
when one of the naginata fighters dies two things could happen... one of the yari fighters can switch to katana and defend or both yari fighters can take positions behind and to either side of the last naginata fighter...
when the last naginata fighter dies the second yari fighter switches to a secondary weapon and defends the primary yari fighter
The marching order depends on which flank the formation is attacking... lets just say for example that the formation is attacking the right flank
y1 n1 k y2 n2
one we have engaged the enemy's flank the naginata fighters move up in a wedge on either side of the katana fighter... the 2 yari fighters move in behind and start reigning death onto the opposing forces...
1 and 2 signifies who's the better fighter with that particular weapon
thoughts? critisims? should i be boiled in oil?
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Oct 9, 2004 16:58:06 GMT -5
I don't know the situation in Trimaris, but the Outlands just published their authorized fighters list and and out of ~250 names there are only two which are Japanese.
Which is not to say that small unit tactics aren't worth thinking about for its own pleasure; but if your goal is to field such a unit - then finding the fighters, getting them into armour, and getting them authorized is your task number one, two, and three.
Personally I would field them: --mae-- n1 y1 y2 _k1 n2
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Post by Harutsune on Oct 9, 2004 22:39:20 GMT -5
I've seen and read about quite a few Japanese persona in Trimaris, and heard tales of several groups in Atlantia as well.
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