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Post by fujiwara on Apr 11, 2005 8:21:28 GMT -5
I've been reading quite a bit about the "Culture of Deeds" on the AA, and quite a bit of it is rather disheartening, given the apparent...shall I say discrimination against those not portraying a persona from 14th C Europe. I totally respect their desire to want to play in there own way, but many of them also happen to be knights of some, or even great, reknown. I will admit that I aspire to the knighthood, and while I know there are many Japanese knights, I would hope that one's chances would be evaluated one their own merits and not be colored by the choice of persona one made. Otagiri-dono has made a valient defense of our cause, but I fear it has fallen on somewhat deaf ears (at least it seems to me). My question is this: what are the forms we as Japanese would use to engage in a "Deed of Arms"? Those of the European persuasion seem desirous of some education in our honorable and civilized ways. I say we should give it to them. ;D
If I have offended any who read this, I extend my humblest apologies, and, if the situation warrents, will gladly commit seppuku to cleanse my honor of that stain.
Fujiwara
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Post by raito on Apr 11, 2005 9:28:51 GMT -5
I've been reading quite a bit about the "Culture of Deeds" on the AA, and quite a bit of it is rather disheartening, given the apparent...shall I say discrimination against those not portraying a persona from 14th C Europe. If I have offended any who read this, I extend my humblest apologies, and, if the situation warrents, will gladly commit seppuku to cleanse my honor of that stain. Fujiwara I'm not offended, but I believe that you misunderstand the motivation of those who are particpating in that thread. Yes, that thread is discriminating, in that it discusses martial culture from a point of view specific in place and time. However, if you read closely, none of them are suggesting that their way is the only correct way (mostly). I'd like to point out Sir Vitus's message in that thread that says he supports all those who would do similar things with their persona. That thread is merely those of similar interests discussing their subject. I'd direct your attention to the 'Formal Challenges' thread there, which would be a more appropriate place for discussion of the Japanese form. That all said, look for a new thread coming from me, and get to WW up in Northshield if you can.
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Apr 11, 2005 10:02:16 GMT -5
Fujiwara-dono:
There is now, and has always been, those who feel that Asian personas are inappropriate to the SCA. That is simply one of the facts-of-life that Asian personas must deal with. The worst possible response is to say "Well, then FU! If you don't respect me, then I won't respect you, your imaginary King, your make-believe Kingdom, or the invisible horse-you-rode-in-on."
I was quite impressed with the responses I read. Sir Daniel now sees that Bushido can be something more than 'loyalty to death' and the 'arch-conservative' Sir Carlyle specifically excluded samurai from his list of inappropriate barbarians.
The main theme I hope that the SCA can get from 'culture of deeds' movement is that we can do it different and that we can do it better. One of the themes that they stress is that it is simply not enough to aim at the 'minimally legal' armour and the 'minimally sufficient attempt' at garb if your goal is honor and reknown.
It might also help to remind yourself that the whole 'deed' thing was often a little disreputable among the powers that be - these were often done just outside the boundaries of legality and good-taste.
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Apr 11, 2005 10:06:23 GMT -5
And now a small challenge to Fujiwara-dono.
I challenge you to quote or retell a historical Japanese 'deed of arms,' one that stirs your blood and inspires you to want to do Japanese.
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Post by raito on Apr 11, 2005 11:42:05 GMT -5
I was quite impressed with the responses I read. Sir Daniel now sees that Bushido can be something more than 'loyalty to death' and the 'arch-conservative' Sir Carlyle specifically excluded samurai from his list of inappropriate barbarians.*
You didn't know him when he was younger...
As I read it, he didn't exclude samurai specifically, just the ones who realize that general SCA culture is not Japanese culture, and don't try to force that.
The main theme I hope that the SCA can get from 'culture of deeds' movement is that we can do it different and that we can do it better. One of the themes that they stress is that it is simply not enough to aim at the 'minimally legal' armour and the 'minimally sufficient attempt' at garb if your goal is honor and reknown.
I agree. The theme is that the main line tournament is not the only thing that can be done, and that these other things can be done better because they don't need to be as inclusive.
It might also help to remind yourself that the whole 'deed' thing was often a little disreputable among the powers that be - these were often done just outside the boundaries of legality and good-taste.
The usual problem of wanting the flower of manhood to be off dying for the powerful instead of for themselves. Gee, that's not Japanese at all, is it?
And as for the rapier side of things beginning to show up in those conversations, does anyone else find it interesting that the civilian sword schools become prominent both in Eurpoe and Japan at about the same time?
* moderator edit to distinguish quoted text
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Apr 11, 2005 12:27:28 GMT -5
And as for the rapier side of things beginning to show up in those conversations, does anyone else find it interesting that the civilian sword schools become prominent both in Eurpoe and Japan at about the same time? Hmmm.... Interesting point. A common reaction/evolution to the pike-squared/spear unit and guns taking over the battlefield? Larger numbers of 'commoners' in the army?
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Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Apr 11, 2005 12:27:55 GMT -5
...as for the rapier side of things beginning to show up in those conversations, does anyone else find it interesting that the civilian sword schools become prominent both in Eurpoe and Japan at about the same time?... Aside fromsome slight differences between the structure of European schools and the Japanese Ryu; at least until you get post-period; I note and see your point. I feel it was to due with the relative economic stability of both cultures at that time. Both Europe and Japan were in series of protracted wars, but life in the urban areas had become relatively secure and structured. There was enough of a "upper-middle class" (read minor aristocracy and their whelps) with enough seemingly disposeable income to support schools and instructors. Since the monied people at the time in that particular economic slot were arguably of the military caste, it is not supprising for matrial skills to be one of the main focus. Further, the only ways for those of that social strata to better themselves was to provide excellent military service, or in Europe exploration. Arguably trade and merchanting may also increase one's wealth, it did not generally carry the same kudos as performance on the field/military service. Anyhow, yeah it is a coincidence, and kinda cool -Takeda Sanjuichiro
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Post by fujiwara on Apr 11, 2005 12:53:39 GMT -5
Otagiri-dono,
I graciously accept your challenge, though I will require some time to formulate a proper response.
Fujiwara
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Post by raito on Apr 11, 2005 14:38:34 GMT -5
Anyhow, yeah it is a coincidence, and kinda cool -Takeda Sanjuichiro That's pretty good thinking. The only thing of substance, rather than detail I'd add is that the rise of nationalism in the west, as well as the consolidation in the east, were the base cause of many of the factors. There's a lot more similarity between east and west than one might think. For instance, look at armour development. Certainly the east didn't have an age of mail. But on both sides the tendency is to go from more pieces, and more complex pieces, to simpler pieces (if one considers Gothic fluting to be decoration, and Maximillian fluting to be process). Heck, even the barons/daimyo bickering between themselves, whatever the King/Emperor said is pretty darned similar.
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Post by raito on Apr 11, 2005 14:45:04 GMT -5
I've been reading quite a bit about the "Culture of Deeds" on the AA, and quite a bit of it is rather disheartening, given the apparent...shall I say Fujiwara Let me essay another attempt. I'm nto disheartened by that thread, I am encouraged. I an encouraged because these folks want to work toward improving the SCA by providing alternate venues for display than are currently the norm. They are not discriminating against us by disallowing our display, just discriminating in who they allow into their display. I do not have a problem with this. It allows deeper study than the norm, which has to put up with all sorts of inconsistencies. The largest example of what they wish to do was the Battle of the Thirty at Pennisc. It was utterly discriminating in that the captains of the teams got to choose who would, and who would not, be allowed to fight. The armour and weapons had to be judged apprioriate. The conventions were as close as they could come to period convention while staying within SCA rules. It was scheduled to not conflict with other things. But the biggest impact of this wasn't that the 14th century will now take over. It's that someone else who wishes to do something similar from another time and place will be able to do so.
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Post by fujiwara on Apr 11, 2005 15:00:25 GMT -5
Hearken, O Cousins, as I humbly sumbit a tale of the road less traveled. For many are the tales of our ancestors prowess and unsurpassed strategy, but others are the virtues which are also held in high esteem. Please, I beg your consideration of this tale of Minamoto no Yoritobu and the Robber.
When Minamoto no Yorinobu Ason was Governer of Kouchi, there was in his retinue a man called Fujiwara no Chikataka, Lieuteant of the Middle Palace Guards. Fujiwara had captured a thief and placed him under guard in his own house. Somehow, the thief escaped and took hostage Chikataka's only son, a boy of no more than six. Hiding in a storage shed, the thief held a knife to boy's belly. Chikataka was informed, and he raced to his home to find the thief and his son.
"Come no closer!" cried the thief, "or I will kill him!" Chikataka paused, feeling faint. "I could hack him to bit, but what good would it do?" he thought. To his followers he said, "Be calm. Do not approach him. Surround him, but keep your distance." And he ran to Yorinobu's office to inform him.
"My Lord!" cried Chikataka, weeping. "My little boy, my only son, has been taken hostage by a robber!"
Yorinobu laughed. "Not that you haven't reason, but what are you doing here weeping? You should want to put up a fight, even if it were oni or kami. You're weeping like a child! Isn't that ridiculous? You should think, 'Let him be killed. He's only one little boy'. Think in this way and you will fulfill your duty as a warrior. But if you worry about yourself or your family, you'll be beaten at every turn. Nonetheless, I'll have a look."
Yorinobu went to Chikataka's home and saw the thief with the boy. He addressed the thief. 'You've taken this boy hostage. What do you intend? Do you mean to kill him?"
The thief replied, "No, my Lord! I could never kill a child. I just wanted to live, and I thought taking a hostage might give me a chance."
"Then throw the knife away. I, Noritobu, command you. I don't intend to look on while you kill a child."
The thief considered this. "Thank you, my Lord. I will; I wouldn't dare disobey you." He flung the knife away and released the boy.
Yorinobu said, "Bring that man here!'" Chikataka wanted to cut the man down, but Yorinobu said, "This man released his hostage - that's a fine thing to have done. He became a theif because he is poor; he took a hostage because he wanted to live. There's no need to hate him; he did what I told him, after all. There's some sense in him. Release him at once."
Yorinobu asked the thief, "What do you need? Tell me." But the thief only wept.
"Give him some provisions. He's done other bad things, and he'll probably kill someone. Look among the draft horses for one that's strong. Put a cheap saddle on it and bring it here." He also sent for a crude bow and quiver. The mount was brought into the courtyard and packed with the supplies and 10 days of dried rice in a bag. "Now, right out of here and begone!"
It must have been the dread he felt at a single word from Yorinobu that made the thief release his hostage. Now think: there was never a more fierce warrior than Yorinobu.
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Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Apr 11, 2005 15:31:53 GMT -5
...I'm not disheartened by that thread, I am encouraged...It's that someone else who wishes to do something similar from another time and place will be able to do so... Hmmm... Border challenges? Each side bringing a couple of seconds and retainers, to engave in a running archery duel between primaries? The seconds only there to assist for transition between weapons? With wonderful challenges issued upon the field, lineages announced, reasons for the confrontation given.. uma jirushi billowing in the wind... -Takeda Sanjuichiro
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Post by fujiwara on Apr 11, 2005 16:28:03 GMT -5
That was fun, let's do it again Hearken, O Cousins, as I humbly tell a tale of prowess and stategy most excellent. I beg your consideration of the tale of how Yoshitsune marched against the Heike. In the third year of Juei, Yoshitsune went to the capital and drove out the Heike. By fighting valiently at Ichi-no-Tani, Yashima, and Dan-no-ura, he crushed the enemy completely. He returned to the city with his prisoners, to be received in audience by the former emperor and the ruling sovereign, who had already named him a ploice lieutenant of fifth rank in the first year of Genryaku. From there he set out toward Kamakura with Taira Munenori and his son, and presently arrived at Koshigoe. "What do you make of Yoshitsune's arrial at Koshigoe with Munetori and his son?" Kajiwara Kagetoki asked Yoritomo. "I think he is waiting for a chance to betray you. When Shou Saburou Takaie gave up Taira Shigehira to Noriyori after capturing him during the battle of Ichi-no-tani, Yoshitsune flew into a terrible rage. 'This is intolerable! Noriyori didn't win the battle - why didn't you send the prisoner to me?' he shouted. He woudl have ordered his men to kill Takaie if I hadn't pacified him by arranging for Shigehira to be delivered to Dohi Jirou Sanehira. On the same occaision he said, 'After the Heike are destoryed, I expect to control all the area west of Osaka Barrier. Though the proverb says there aren't two suns in the sky or sovereigns on earth, Japan is going to have two shoguns from now on." "He is such a magnificent warrior that he ignored the wind and waves and skimmed over the gunwales of ships like a bird, even though he knew nothing at all about naval warfare. At Ichi-no-tani, the Heike had a fortress in a thousand, defended by 100,000 men against our 65,000. When a big army besieges a weak fortress, the opposing sides are usually well-matched. The Ichi-no-Tani garrison was huge and its men were at home on the ground, while we were outnumbered strangers. Nobody thought we had a chance until Yoshitsune beat them by leading a handful of warriors across Hideori Pass, through mountains almost too wild for birds and beasts. No ordinary man could have done such a thing! At Yashima, he forced a passage with five vessels through raging winds and towering waves, swooped boldly down on the fortress at the head of fifty men, and drove away thousands of Taira warriors. From start to finish, when the decisive battle was fought at Dan-no-ura, he seemed to have no weakness whatever. Warriors from all over the country agreed that there ha dnever been another general like him in China or Japan." "Because he intends to rebel, he is thoughtful of everyone-he takes an interest in the personal problems of the humblest warriors. All the men admire and respect him. 'There's a master for you! I would give my life for him without thinking twice,' they say. It would be foolhardy to let him into Kamakura. Your good fortune is karma from a previous existence, so it will probably last to the end of your life; but what about your sons? And can we be quite so certain in your own case?" "There is no reason to suspect Kajiwara of duplicity," said Yoritomo. "nevertheless, a fair ruler hears both sides. Since Yoshitsune is in Koshigoe now, He and Kajiwara will confront each other here tomorrow." "There should be no danger for Yoshitsune, who has certainly done nothing wrong," the chieftains said among themselves. "Still, who knows what may happen? Kajiwara's lies show that he hasn't forgotten the reverse oars - to say nothing of his rivalry with Yoshitsune at the battle of Dan-no-ura, when the two almost came to blows." Yoshitsune's prisoners were brought in alone from Koshigoe, while Yoshitsune, barred from Kamakura, indulged in useless regrets. "Though it is true that my main goal was to clear our family name and cheer the spirits of the dead, I have tried to please Yoritomo too. I had hoped to get a reward, but now it seems that my loyal service will count for nothing. Thanks to Kajiwara's lies, I won't even be granted an interview. I was too lenient with him in the west. Instead of killing him like he deserved, I let him live to repay me with enmity." At Kamakura, Yoritomo summoned Kawagoe Shigeyori. "My brother is secretly planning to start a war. Go to Koshigoe and kill him before warriors from the west join him." "I hardly need to say I will always obey you, but my daughter's marriage to Yoshitsune puts me in an awkward position. Please ask someone else." Yoritomo could not regard this attitude as unreasonable, and he summoned Hatakeyama. "Go to Koshigoe and kill my brother before he starts a war. As a reward, I shall give you Iza and Surugu provinces." *** to be continued ***
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Saionji Shonagon
New Member
One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Apr 11, 2005 21:10:23 GMT -5
I've been reading quite a bit about the "Culture of Deeds" on the AA, and quite a bit of it is rather disheartening, given the apparent...shall I say discrimination against those not portraying a persona from 14th C Europe. Not being on AA, I can't judge whether that was the intent of the discussion, but there are people in the SCA who think Asian personae are out of place. That is their problem. It need not be yours. Preemptive peeing in each other's cornflakes serves no purpose. I'm having this same conversation with a fighter from another part of my kingdom who wants to do Japanese and knows I live with a Norman dog of a knight. When we were living back east, a friend who wanted to do Japanese squired to said Norman knight, though he could've asked to squire to Sir Tanaka. (This is how Jehanne de Wodeford, who thought it only polite to take an interest in her lord's squire's activities, got sucked in!) There's a lot that goes into the knightly career path. You don't need to squire to a Japanese knight if you find that you are mutually compatible, he respects your interests, and is willing to go to the mat for you with his peers if they're being dense. (Remember, these are people who have taken an awful lot of shots to the head.) I attended a magnificent tournament this weekend, La Prova Dura or Ordeal. A 15 round, round-robin tourney to determine the best of the best without the attendant baggage of can-I-afford-to-be-king-this-year, heavy on pageantry in high medieval style. At invocation, each household (or free fighter) was announced by their own personal herald. The household's leader might also address the crowd, issue challenges, etc. We didn't happen to have any Asian fighters, but as usual in the West, we had a metric buttload of early period Vikings out there with the high Gothic crowd. Since the whole point was to do this with style and panoply, I thought it would be perfectly in keeping with the flavor of things if a samurai, perhaps accompanied by retainers and a consort who walked behind him and does not get named in front of all those staring gaijin, stood up and said, "I am Blah, son of Blah, from Blah province and these are my deeds [insert fighting credits here]. I am worth ten thousand men and I cannot wait to take all of your heads or die gloriously in the attempt. If any here thinks himself my equal, I challenge him to meet me between rounds and fight me. " Even better if he was sufficiently able to issue his challenge in Japanese, requring an "interpreter" for a little shtick. Portraying a Japanese with panache "educates" and even impresses our European brethren. Besides, it's fun! When I attend events as Makiwara, I go to court, find a conspicuous place to sit. I bow to the floor as the royalty process by or when higher ranked people pass me. I hide behind a fan. I look excruciatingly elegant. To you fighters that may not sound like much, but I'm told that some people were terrified to speak to me at that first West Kingdom Twelfth Night. It was probably the black teeth. ;-> Considering that I do more events as Jehanne than as Makiwara, folks now automatically make floor space for me at court, know not to fall on me expecting a hello hug, and are managing to remember to use the right name. And all this in an extremely Eurocentric kingdom. Two sen worth, Makiwara
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Saionji Shonagon
New Member
One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Apr 11, 2005 21:14:50 GMT -5
Fine, it's not a deed of arms, but I am partial to the scene in the "Tale of the Heike" at Dan-no-ura. The Nun of Second Rank takes her grandson, Antoku-Tenno, in her arms and vows that even though she is but a weak woman, her enemies will not dishonor her by taking her alive. "Who among you will join me in escorting the Emperor into the next world?" So saying, she leaps into the sea with the toddler Emperor in her arms, followed by his attendants.
Not bad for a weak and feeble woman.
Makiwara
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