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Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Oct 19, 2005 12:25:37 GMT -5
::sigh:: I am going to seem like such a 'nube for this, but I needs to learn some.
I have been reading the Armor Archive again (gave it up for a while, it was mostly re-hashed stuff) and some things have gotten me thinking.
Some quick background notes: In my early history with the SCA I met some bad eggs in the Chivarly, resultantly my thoughts of knights became jaded. Now however I have been exposed to more people and a wider number of the Chivalry. Nearly all of the Chivalry I have met in the last few years are great people and my respect for the Chivarly has grown exponentially.
Because of my early dealings I tuned much of the ceremony of the SCA out and am somewhat clueless on many things. (Something I am trying to overcome)
So here are some questions, any comments would be appreciated.
1. Is it soley upon a few European stories of antiquity that the tradition "only a knight can make a knight" stems from? If honor (and rank) stems from the crown, why is this considered a noble exception? Correspondingly, how did the first Knight get created? (I know it was an exception in the SCA, but what is the justification)
2. I was recently informed that Atlantia does not create Masters of Arms, thus all Atlantian Chivalry must be knights. Is this common in other kingdoms?
3. Do all knights have vigils, is the method/duration of a vigil set by the canidate's knight, the chivalry as a whole, or the crown? For those Chivalric peers on the board here who portray Nihonjin, who have had nihonjin squires become knights, how did you set up the vigil?
Thanks for the bandwidth -Takeda, the oft-times un-edumicated.
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Post by Kitadatetenno on Oct 19, 2005 13:23:40 GMT -5
1. Yes, if even that. The first Knight was bootstapped from nothing, though there's legends about that, too. It's considered an exception because the Order is cranky, fickle, and nearly arrogant (regardless of the members). Change Is Bad (tm).
2. It is rumoured to be true. It is rumoured that if the Crown or Order catches wind that someone would take that other path, they will not be made the offer. Once the offer is made, though, Corpora requires allowing the choice. No clue about other Kingdoms but the Middle and Northshield, where it is not a problem.
3. Not all Chivalry have vigils. The method is set according to individual tradition. As I was not a squire, I set my own method. Knowing that few would bother to speak to me, I set up in a corner with some good (period) books at a couple of events and studied. As I was on vigil during the winter, things like tents did not enter into it. In NS and the Mid, the Crown doesn't enter into that much.
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Post by OgamiBusho on Oct 19, 2005 14:06:05 GMT -5
1. Is it soley upon a few European stories of antiquity that the tradition "only a knight can make a knight" stems from? If honor (and rank) stems from the crown, why is this considered a noble exception? Correspondingly, how did the first Knight get created? (I know it was an exception in the SCA, but what is the justification) A good deal of the European chivalric myth of 'only a knight can make a knight' stems from the attempt to emulate the Catholic church. Each pope is in a direct line of decent from St. Peter, which means that each pope has legitimate. In that same way, the knights would try to link their descent from the Church Militant saints, making their ability to slaughter not only a right, but a holy thing. (In some cases the lineages were also linked to ancient Greek heroes like Paris and Hector.) Huh. I didn't know that. There's a good deal of prejudice against masters among some knights. The whole 'master of arms' thing came from early in the SCA when someone felt that swearing fealty conflicted with his religious beliefs. The title (along with not swearing fealty) was invented for him, and that set the precedent. The problem with masters, if it's a problem, is that the knights view them as... well, ronin. Yes, they're chivalry, but they're not *knights*.... I will admit that I would be appalled if one of my squires decided to become a master, but that's because I'm samurai. (You... you *want* to be a ronin? Dear Buda, what did I do WRONG?!?!) Each kingdom has its own traditions. Some are pretty rigid, others aren't. There is no Japanese equivalent of a vigil. What I do with my guys is to make their vigil as elaborate and as Japanese as is humanly possible. When we did my squire Koredono's vigil, it was pretty damned amazing. The vigil area was in some woods and enclosed by camp curtains. There were three-legged fire pots, the Yama Kaminari taiko drummers played all night, and we had Japanese food for the guests. I had one of my retainers portraying a Buddhist priest chanting 'namu amida butsu' the entire time. And the sweet part of it was that when Koredono was taken to the site by the knights, he was stopped outside the curtains. Viscount Sir Haakon then read aloud a message from the king inviting the squire Koredono to commit suppuku. (God, you should have seen his eyes bulge!) And at the end of the vigil, the squire Koredono committed suicide. From then until he was knighted he wore his kimono 'right over left', signifying he was dead. No, it wasn't really Japanese. But, damn! It had style!
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Oct 19, 2005 14:34:04 GMT -5
Correspondingly, how did the first Knight get created? (I know it was an exception in the SCA, but what is the justification) At the first tourney in Diana's back yard, Ardral Argo verKaeysc (David Bradley) fought well enough that they knighted him on the spot. Then at Twelfth Night, year Two (was it Two? I think so...) Siegfried knighted whoever was King at the time (William the Silent?) and he knighted everybody else (including Fulk and Siegfried and Jon), "bootstrapping the Order," as Siegfried later put it.www.florilegium.org/files/STORIES/SCA-hist2-msg.htmlThere is some talk about one of the early sca 'knights' being a Knight of some sort outside of the SCA and bringing that lineage into the SCA itself. I think that this 'real lineage' story is generally discredited.
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Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Oct 19, 2005 14:48:39 GMT -5
O'Tenno and Sir Ogami, thank you for your replies, understanding the history behind the tradition makes it more special, even if the history can be a bit silly at times. (After all good schtik is good schtik) It is rumoured to be true. It is rumoured that if the Crown or Order catches wind that someone would take that other path, they will not be made the offer. Huh. I didn't know that. There's a good deal of prejudice against masters among some knights... The problem with masters, if it's a problem, is that the knights view them as... well, ronin. Yes, they're chivalry, but they're not *knights*.... I will admit that I would be appalled if one of my squires decided to become a master, but that's because I'm samurai. (You... you *want* to be a ronin? Dear Buda, what did I do WRONG?!?!) I heard it from someone who I trust his knowledge of the inner workings of the local Chivalry. However doing a bit of trying to answer some of my own questions earlier, I stumbled upon the list of Chivalry at whitebelt.com and since the founding of Atlantia there has been no Masters of Arms created, nor any listed as having been in/are in residence. *modification* - I do not know whether that is by chance or if those Masters of Arms that have entered into Atlantia since it's inception had been offered a knighthood and all have accepted and sworn an oath, thus exchanging baldric for belt. - As a side note I wonder how people on this board feel about: A kingdom which has no tradition of Masters of Arms, awarded such as the Rapier Peerage. (Assuming that the knights in kingdom were in agreement with this) My personal thought on it being since MOA's are not required to swear feality, they are not automatically viewed as "in service" to a kingdom. Also they are not "Sirs" The way I see it, (no offence to MOA's) is Masters of Arms are already viewed as "second-class Chivalry" No, it wasn't really Japanese. But, damn! It had style! It does sound very cool, it must have been a wonderful site to see (and hear!) Thank you again, -Takeda
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Oct 19, 2005 15:27:49 GMT -5
As a side note I wonder how people on this board feel about: A kingdom which has no tradition of Masters of Arms, awarded such as the Rapier Peerage. (Assuming that the knights in kingdom were in agreement with this) Master of Arms go by the honorific Master and not Sir. I've thought about this issue a little. I like it. It provides rapiers, archers, and jousters a peerage based on combat skills that is both seperate-from and one-with the KSCA. Currently, both MoA and Knights sit in on the Chivalry circles and this tradition may need to be modified for the Knights to ever accept the idea ... or it may not. I know that some Laurels have been given for Master-work in period fencing, but I think that this is not the best solution possible for combat related skills. I like the idea of Master-of-arms being offered to the non-rattan combat participants.
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Oct 19, 2005 17:28:48 GMT -5
From the West Kingdom History Project at: history.westkingdom.org/Year1/FirstTournament.htm"......After all had been announced there was the long note of a horn, and David the Herald announced the blessings of the swords. At this the archbishop, Jon de Cles, rose and let the sonorous Latin roll forth, “Ecce Eduardus ursus scalis nunc tump-tump-tump occipite gradus pulsante, post Christophorum Robinum descendens ...”, and the assembly chorused “Amen.” The first combat was announced between Sir Siegfried von Hoflichskeit and Sir Kenneth, with mace, and then Sir Aeginius versus Nathan the Retarius (with net and trident). There was a pause as singers sang “Sumer is i-cumen in” and then two more combats followed by four dancers doing a pavanne. Then combat resumed. As the other fighters were all styled as knights, and as David the Herald was fighting well, Sir Siegfried von Hoflichskeit, with the consent of the rest of the fighters, called David forth to kneel and, in the manner of the medieval order of chivalry, dubbed him knight." (Yes, that Latin litany is from Winnie the Pooh.) There's also a link to some pictures of some very young, very earnest First Tourney participants. I'm going to give Gaius a poke and ask him about the 'real knight' question. "Real knight" may be "Knights of Columbus" or something of that sort. BTW, if anyone here is attending Estrella and would like to hear about the SCA's Good Old Days, I camp with Frederick of Holland, who is, BTW, one of those ronin Master of Arms types and I'm sure we can get His Grace into yarn spinning mode without much effort. Saionji
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Oct 19, 2005 17:40:52 GMT -5
You trained up a squire with a conscience? How can that be wrong? Ogami-dono, we may have to agree to disagree on this one. I've run into members of all three peerages who should be strung up by their regalia for the crows. However, every single Master that I've ever met is someone for whom I have the utmost respect. One doesn't make that decision without a great deal of thought - and backbone.
Hell, it wasn't even a vigil!!!!
Wow. I love it!
Saionji
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Oct 19, 2005 18:02:49 GMT -5
I've occasionally wondered if the gempuku ceremony could be appropriately modified for samurai knightings.
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Oct 19, 2005 19:00:15 GMT -5
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Oct 20, 2005 0:22:49 GMT -5
Per Viscount Gaius Auklandus: "The first couple of knights made themselves, but sometime shortly thereafter all of them were reknighted (or knighted, if you will) by a Knight of Malta. That's how that works out." Hmm. Our SCA order is therefore, however tenuously one believes, linked to a military order that dates back to the Crusades. www.smom.org/Saionji
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Post by Kitadatetenno on Oct 20, 2005 9:23:56 GMT -5
I think that the best portrayal of the attitude towards Masters comes from one of Folo's rainy day activity books.
There's 4 fighters stainding in a row. The 3 on the left have white belts. The 1 on the right has a white baldric. The caption reads,"Which of these 4 is different?". The answer is,"Neither, to the one on the right."
Not my attitude, but then, I was taught by a Master (Master Thorbjorn), and never a squire.
I should also note that Chen-tsu in the Middle is a Master, but became so for the title, which is appropriate to his persona. He swears fealty every reign.
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Post by Matsuura Suetsune on Oct 20, 2005 14:20:56 GMT -5
Unfortunately you live in the land of "close form heater shields" and have a difficult and frustrating road to travel in Atlantia. I came into the S.C.A. here and was told that to play the game you had to fight with sword and shield. If you were good enough maybe the big boys would let you use some weapon that was interesting. I spent years wasting my time trying to be "good enough" with a weapons form I despise. Sir Ogami would say I was a transvestite on the field, and he's right. I finally decided that I was going to join the game but with my toys. The Knighting of Sir Justus may pave the way for others who do not play the normal Atlantian way. Takeda, I hope that you don't get to much flack or to discouraged in your end ever. I have decided that I am going to try to reach my potential, but have little if any hope of becoming a Knight in our kingdom.
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Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Oct 20, 2005 15:33:15 GMT -5
Unfortunately you live in the land of "close form heater shields" and have a difficult and frustrating road to travel in Atlantia. Ok, I will admit the close form style of sword and shield is frustrating, but only on the standpoint of getting the buggers to open up enough to get a solid shot in. Since I moved to and began participating here in Atlantia, I have been overwhelmed with great people. My troubles in the old days were in the Midrealm and the East Kingdom. I know there is some differences between Northern and Southern Atlantia, but last year when I re-authorized here I borrowed a shield (which I had not picked up in oh, 10 years) authorized, and them proceeded to try for greatsword and polearm a few minutes later. The only reason I authorized weapon and shield is because there is no authorization for a single 1-handed weapon other than that. The marhals felt since there is only the W&S slot, I needed to demonstrate I could be safe with one since there is no way to show on my card otherwise. Now in Atlantia there is no weapon you must authorize with first, and none have a pre-requisite authorization. Despite what the marshal's handbook/rules for Atlantia states, 95% of marshals not only require you to be safe with, but skilled with the following forms when you attempt to authorize: Greatsword, Polearm, Dual weapons. I was lucky enough that when I authorized greatsword, the marshals mentioned they had to wonder which was they person trying to authorize. However my luck ran out when I attempted my polearm authorization, I had to fight Sir Baku, he not only schooled me, but my chinstrap failed and I was done for the day. (Like an idiot though, I enjoyed it) So far I have enjoyed myself here in Atlantia, not only do I have some great friends (a good number who happen to do Japanese as well) but people's acceptance of things Japanese here seems quite high, kingdom wide, and oft times take the time to listen to or even ask my opinion. Much of what I missed in my early time with the SCA I have re-discovered, it has made my desire to participate increase, and my desire to strive for exellence expand, in things both on and off the field. I admit some day I would like to become a knight, it is something I have regained. The likelyhood of that happening though is not the best. However I will strive to excell, for one never knows who will be watching, and while prowress is importaint it is not the sole measure of a knight in Atlantia. (At least from what I have been told recently) I hope you efforts bear fruit for you as well. -Takeda As a side note, I asked someone about what is the general gauge used in Atlantia for the level of skill nessisary to be considered a canidate for knighthood. I was told. "Too be able to beat 50% of the Knights 50% of the time... your chosen {tournament} style against theirs {chosen sytle}."
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Post by OgamiBusho on Oct 20, 2005 15:45:47 GMT -5
All right, let me plunge into my own semi-ancient history.
I qualified in the East kingdom in A.S. 11 or 12. The rule was that you had to qualify sword and board before you could use any other weapon, so I qualified S&S at the crown tourney held by Frederick of Holland that was won by Gyrth Oldcastle. It was the last time I ever used a shield.
I spent the next several years having a blast and enjoying the hell out of myself on the field. I played to the crowd a lot and apparently I was fun to watch. (Killing the king twice and doing it dramatically and decisively during my naginata qualification bouts didn't hurt, either.) I also kicked the crap out of a lot of first-class fighters. I taught a lot, did a lot of arts, and worked my butt off at events. I fought like a knight and acted like a knight, and at Pennsic X (whatever year that was) I was belted.
I never expected to be knighted. I was samurai. I wasn't a squire. I was a cocky smart-ass. I was more than happy to do something silly and stupid that got me killed if it was good theater. I never gave a rat's ass about winning or losing.
I know a lot of Atlantian knights. The *vast* majority of them are good, fair, honorable people. If you want to be a knight you have to look like a knight, act like a knight and fight like a knight. Do your arts and service because you love what you do, not to punch a ticket. Study your fighting and your opponents and beat the living bejeezus out of them.
My karate master used to say, "If you want to learn to kick, then kick." Well, if you want to be a knight, then be a knight. And so what if you have to kill 50% of the knights 50% of the time? Numbers games are odious, but now you have an idea of what they're looking for. Go do it. Make a hobby of killing the best knights, your katana or naginata against their S&S.
And as a side note-- Who *says* you can't use a particular weapon without someone's permission? Read your kingdom's rules and combat conventions. If you qualify with a weapon, no one can stop you from using it unless it's a weapon-specific tourney or a battle where the use of a weapon would be unsafe (like using a bow where there isn't enough room to ensure the well-being of the spectators).
Hmmm. I've begun ranting. I'll shut up and (rather sheepishly) get off my soapbox.
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