OTY
New Member
Odawara Tarou Yoshinobu
Posts: 11
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Post by OTY on Jun 4, 2006 3:18:57 GMT -5
Ok, odd question here. Going strickly by persona, a samurai who is not in service to someone is ronin, ergo, scum.
In the SCA, fealty comes in lots of packages. As a member of a houshold, or as a Man At Arms to someone, or as a Squire to a Knight or Master.
Here's the trick.
For persona play, someone doing a Japanese persona should be n fealty to someone. But, in the SCA, such things are taken quite seriously, and once entered into, cannot be left easily.
What is the best way for someone in the SCA who is not in a fealty relationship to enter into one? And what sort of relationship would be best to enter into?
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Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Jun 4, 2006 9:31:54 GMT -5
Going strickly by persona, a samurai who is not in service to someone is ronin, ergo, scum... But, in the SCA, such things are taken quite seriously, and once entered into, cannot be left easily. I'm not quite sure what you are asking Odawara-dono... It appears you are asking if not being in "proper" SCA fealty makes you a ronin. If this is the case, I would have to say not having sworn fealty does not make one a ronin. There are many ways to serve and the decision ultimately becomes up to you. I personally do not see myself as ronin, though I have not formally sworn fealty. When I received my AoA, the King gave to me silk, rice, title and land. As such I feel it is my duty to be in service to my kingdom. In short you do not have to be a ronin if you do not want to be, being a good subject counts, at least in my book. -Takeda
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OTY
New Member
Odawara Tarou Yoshinobu
Posts: 11
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Post by OTY on Jun 7, 2006 14:56:27 GMT -5
Hmmm. I think I see where you are comming from. Not sure if I agree, but it seems to work for you.
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Jun 7, 2006 15:44:14 GMT -5
Odawara-dono: You will find some of my thoughts on this matter here: tousando.proboards18.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1126372277While it is ideal for our society 'persona' and our historical 'reenactment' to overlap as much as possible, few of us get the opportunity to play that way. Certainly samurai were in 'fealty' to superiors, but they never were in fealty to Norsemen or French Knights. Certainly samurai had an emperor and some sort of local landlord towards which they owed duty, but those guys never spoke the King's English. When faced with these difficulties, I chose to cut through them. I am a samurai in service to the Hatakeyama in the late sixteenth century. After the Hatakeyama were forced from their lands, I serve in the armies sent to Chosen by Hideyoshi. While landless, the Hatakeyama nevertheless were held in high enough esteem by Tokugawa that he granted them "daimyou" status and a permanent stipend. So even in historical Japan, "in service" can be a slippery concept. I am also (no matter how poorly I serve) a squire to the Knight, Sir Nicholas DeKane, currently in Atenveldt, and do what I can to advance his name. I serve the Kingdom in war and have just been asked to teach a combat class. I serve the Barony as its Web Minister. But enough of me. Here is a suggestion. It is only a suggestion. It's worked for me. Find an analog of your Japanese self. For me, I figured I was a 100 koku samurai, expected to bring a couple of fellows with me to war. So I built a loaner suit of armour, and helped a newbie with another, and do what I can to help get an extra person or two to Estrella every year. Maybe you're just the 30 koku ashigaru who can't really help other people yet. Set your sites on making sure you have a complete hard kit, a complete soft kit, and find a buddy to go to war with. As you participate more, you will find the opportunity to help others, "advance" from the 30 koku to the 100 koku guy. Do you see how the "service" can become a natural extension of what you are doing anyway? (Hint: even the 30 koku guy, with no formal SCA leige, takes the responsibility to get authorized, keep his kit in shape, and 'show up' at practice and at war. Do it regularly, people notice. Don't do it regularly (unfortunately, this is were I'm at) and people notice that too. And you've got a fighting buddy, so its just not one of you, its two of you. Its how armies get built.). One of the things I learned from the Historical Reenactment guys is that sometimes we set our goals too high and want to acquire the goods and style of a medieval Duke while we are working minimum wage jobs and haven't acquired the knowledge to distinguish the real thing from the phoney. I'm rambling. Pick a persona you can really develop. Fight regularly. Look good. Have fun doing it. Opportunities to serve will arise. Most of them non-combat related. Notice a knight you would like to work with? Ask for his help at fighter practice. Ask if he can use your help putting up or taking down his camp. But don't be a brownnosing kissass. Make sure you like his camp-mates. After a while, if you think you two are compatable, and he hasn't brought the subject up, ask him in private about his thoughts on men-at-arms, squires. And on you. Don't force it. Meanwhile, serve the King's Army as best you can.
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Post by norumanjin on Jan 6, 2007 17:22:16 GMT -5
As an alternative think about doing "contract work" for a set period for a household, or senior member of the organization. This would put you into a position where you would have an "employer" but there would be a set period for the relationship so you could end it very naturally when the time is up with no hard feelings on either side (or if there are any too bad - the relationship was structured to have a start and end date.) I did that starting out, and have done that with a few promising young men one or two of whom took my belt one or two of whom didn't It's a good way of avoiding a mistake. Mordreth
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Post by Ishikawa Yoshimasa on Jan 13, 2007 17:50:31 GMT -5
there are s have been pointed out above many ways to serve... I happen to be an aprentice to a laurel whom I admire and respect greatly, but our relationship spans across kingdom borders. within the society I am a titleless nobody, but, when a friend of mine also chose to do a japanese persona, he became my retainer, and I made a complete outfit of garb for him... I live in a different town, and have not been able to present it to him... and last we talked he was thinking of going germanic instead, so I may never get to give my retainer his clothing. because I am in servicwe to my laurel I am samurai, and because he is in service to me he is/was samurai... on the other hand I knew a young man who had no household, nor a master/student association with anyone. he could be defined as ronin, but in his heart, and in all reality he was samurai, for he served his group. he held no office, but he worked where and when he could, and he faught with thier group fighting unit... it could be said that this also describes a simple ashigaru... another friend is ronin. he shall remain ronin untill he finds the right household, or becomes a diamyo in his own right. it is his own choice to call himself ronin, though he realises fully that in doing so he is calling himself "unemployed" I know no historical samurai who would be proud to proclaim himself ronin outside of '80's ninja/samurai movies, and anime, nor do I comprehend those such as nissan who seem to take pleasure in being ronin, but it is just a matter or perspective who and how you serve... as for serving your group... even the smallest shire is tecnicaly in service to the king, there wether formal, or informal, you are in fealty of one form or another to your kingdom, though in truth precious few people hold a formal fealty to thier kingdom, most simnply live and serve within thier kingdom. this is in fact an unspoken form of fealty, for by choice you owe service to your kingdom, and it in turn is sworn to "provide and care" for you. it could easily be said that the lowest english peasant is in fealty to the king for the duke is in direct fealty to the king, the lord who administers those 50 or so acres in the northern corner of the dukes land is in turn in sworn service (thus fealty) to the duke, the peasant is essentialy sworn to serve the lord and his duke and king providing them with food and goods in return for a place to live and labor, as well as the protection of the lord, duke, and king from invader (though in truth the lord and such simply are defending the land and care lil for the peasant untill they find themself without the services provided by those pesants... though this theory of fealty strays from the direct aplication to samurai and ronin, or one could say every pesant no matter how low in status was a samurai. such blasphemy would be like telling the diamyo that the wealthy merchant is indeed his equal, or telling the politician that the voter is indeed thier rightful employer, thus boss there are so many ways you can look at it, it is truely up to you how you want to justify your persona be it samurai, ronin, or ashigaru... afterall when a certain r9onin on this board takes merc work, is he still a ronin, or is he employed in the service of his contracted lord, even if for a short while? reguardless of your choice, some people will justify your decision differently than you... in the end does it realy matter? most of the nambanjin think if you cary a katana you must be samurai, or immortal<G> does thier ignorance realy matter to us? (only in that it offeres an opretunity to educate them better in our choses cunture) do any of us realy care if you are samurai, ronin, ashigaru, or monk? we may give yolu a hard time about it, but I know of noone around this board that would do so out of cruelty... I personaly used to give a midrealm friend a hard time about being ronin, while at the same time counciling him not to rush into any decisions about joining a household... he was new to the SCA, and would hang out and fight with a household in his kingdom... appearantly they had courted him for joining... he had not been in long enough to know what he was looking for in a household, and my advice to him was simply to "wait a while before making such a decision. camp with them fight with them, be friends with them all you want, but wait til you are sure it is the right choice before jumping in to anything. afterall you may decide you want to join a japanese household to be with others with simular cultural interest, or you may find that you have a personality conflict with a member, or you could decide they are the right group for you. but it is often easier to get into a household than it is to get out of one again." (or something to that effect I am no longer sure those are the exact words, but it is the idea of our discussion.) I ribbed him about being ronin, but he served his shire well, and from what I heard became an officer there for a time. this means he was truely every bit as much a samurai as any other. saddly I lost my contact info for him, and have not heard from him since he went to england for a semester of school. anyway I digress as I often do... the point is it is ALL how you look at it. as you can see just from looking at the posts above, as well as my own, we each have our own opinions on the topic.
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