japanese horseplay?

[Hosokawa Sanosuke]

I was wondering if the japanese used spurs to motivate their horses to run. anyone have any info on this? I was wondering because I cant remember ever seeing anything like a set of spurs among fuedal japanese artifacts. anybody know of a site that has this kind of info?

[Saionji Shonagon]

I don't recall ever seeing them either. I tried Googling "Japanese spurs" and "Japan spurs" and all the hits I got were use of "spurs" as a verb, not a noun.*

As someone who spent 20 years with horses, both English style pric spurs and Western spurs are meant to be worn with boots. I tried a pair with sneakers once (riding in sneakers NOT recommended!) and it wasn't terribly comfortable. I would imagine that with tabi and waraji it would be even less comfortable for the rider.

However, I think I've seen whips, including whips with fly whisks on the end.

*Which does not prevent SCA chivalry with Japanese persona from wearing the things. I remember teasing Sir Tanaka Raiko about the English dummy spurs he wears with his jika tabi. (They're called dummy spurs because the ends are blunt, not because Tanaka-dono is a dummy!)

[Saionji Shonagon]

Motivational bamboo whips used at Soma Noma Oi....

www.pbase.com/joanseeuw/image/47612239

www.pbase.com/joanseeuw/image/47612255

www.pbase.com/joanseeuw/image/47612263

[Hosokawa Sanosuke]

arigatou makiwara-sama, I believe you have completely cleared up my confusion. I feel kinda dumb, I was just looking at those pictures wondering what the bamboo sticks were for. thanks.

[Saionji Shonagon]

ryomasoke said:

I feel kinda dumb, I was just looking at those pictures wondering what the bamboo sticks were for.

Don't feel that way, if you don't know about horses and horsemanship, it's simply a knowledge gap thing.

Compare these pictures. Look at the rider's leg position in each.






Spurs are much more useful if one rides with long stirrups like the dressage and Western riders shown here. Think of the spur as a reaching tool. When you don't need them, your heel drops into neutral position away from the horse's side, when you do, you bring your heel in and apply the spur.

You never see spurs on jockeys. Their position is very exagerratedly forward and high and spurs would be ineffective. Traditional Japanese horsemen ride with short stirrups, if not as short as race jockeys. For that matter, the horse's tack is right under their leg - they'd be spurring saddle pad, not horse.

[Hosokawa Sanosuke]

I see, makes sense. so samurai on horseback would be positioned more like the jockey?

[Saionji Shonagon]

I see, makes sense. so samurai on horseback would be positioned more like the jockey?

Not quite as extremely forward and with such a short stirrup, but definitely more forward and shorter than a Western knight, for instance. Though some of the Soma Noma Oi riders in Jo's gallery are riding pretty short in the racing scenes.(It's effective - it lets you get up over the horse's center of gravity at that speed and it's aerodynamic.)

Stirrup length and saddle design tend to evolve in terms of what one needs to do from the back of a horse.

A longer stirrup gives the rider a very deep, secure seat - useful for charging with a couched lance or staying aboard a cutting horse with lightning reflexes.

A shorter stirrup gives a great deal of maneuverability. Asian and Middle Eastern horse cultures tend to ride with bent knees. Why? Works well for horse archery.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D4t2k-Joc0

[Hosokawa Sanosuke]

thats awesome

[dianet]

After looking at the stirrups of the Japanese, and seeing some of the older movies, I haven't seen one spur in the bunch. However, there are some riders in the black and white movies that seem to use the back of the stirrup as well as the heel itself on the horse. Is this just movie theatrics? Just curious.

*wavies*
Diane

[Yamamori]

dianet said:

After looking at the stirrups of the Japanese, and seeing some of the older movies, I haven't seen one spur in the bunch. However, there are some riders in the black and white movies that seem to use the back of the stirrup as well as the heel itself on the horse. Is this just movie theatrics? Just curious.

*wavies*
Diane

This is the way I recall being told to do it from my one lesson. The inside corner of the stirrup, along with the mass of all that iron, would seem to be fairly motivating, when kicked into the ribs.

If there is still interest in this, I can write to my lady, currently working at horse-farm in Japan which teaches how to ride in the Japanese tradition.

Yamamori

[mojuko]

First of all, it would depend greatly on the training of the horse and the armor it is wearing, as this can impede the effectivness of spurs. Medieval knights always rode stallions into battle and these stallions were not always trained as well as a knight would like, the very long spurs were designed to 'control' these horses and encourage fearless entry into battle.

The Japanese riding style is different both in its general seat (as discussed by Makiwara) as well as how horses were used in battles, also, of course, the saddle, stirrups, and clothing on the horse change how one would employ the use of 'spurs'.

There is a difference between historical drawings and the modern pictures of riders as well, the size of the modern horse is larger then the native Kiso breed used in Edo and earlier periods...and honestly a very different skill at riding. When you are less skilled at riding, you tend to feel more comfortable with higher stirrups. With both of these influencing the appearance of stirrup length...it is very hard to tell what they would have done originally.

[solveig]

Noble Cousins!

Greetings from Solveig! Don't forget about Western saddles.
You will notice that this riding position is much closer to the Japanese riding position. However, the saddle and the riding position are adapted for herding animals from horseback. Consequently, Western riders typically do not use crops. The Japanese use crops, but no spurs. You will note that English riders employ crops and spurs.

[mojuko]

As for the use of spurs, I would agree that the back of the stirrup would be more then adequate given the horses would be trained for such commands. Some cultures train for seat cues, some for leg cues others for weight cues...also there are some African cultures that use voice cues. It is possible to combine all of these cues, depending on the needs of the horse, rider and style of riding. Archers would ride differently then those using swords, even changing styles as the moved from one to the other in battles. Even a deep seated European knight can two point when necessary.

You will notice that this riding position is much closer to the Japanese riding position.

Actually... this is no more "similar" then the upright styles of dressage, Portuguese or medieval riding discussed earlier.

However, the saddle and the riding position are adapted for herding animals from horseback.

The Western saddle is a derivative of the 'Moorish style' , one of the off shoots of the roman saddle that was intended for stability and is a 'pointless' or 'bar' saddle. Also included in this style are the Australian, western Chinese and McClellan. these are also known as the 'working saddles'.
Western tree

Australian tree

McClellan tree

Western Chinese tree


English saddles are in the 'Hungarian style', built from the roman style again, but these were intended to be lighter and stable for jumping over enemy foot soldiers. These saddles feature a saddle tree with 'points' to help provide the stability.
English saddle tree

Portuguese saddle tree

Medieval Saddle tree (from rear)

Japanese saddle tree

Consequently, Western riders typically do not use crops.

Actually western riders can use a type of crop, it is called a 'popper'. It is located at the ends of most split reins

You will note that English riders employ crops and spurs.

Not all English riders use these, and they are not both designed to do the same thing. Spurs, in English riding, are used to make the leg/heel cues of a rider more precise. whips and crops are to give completely different cues and occasional 'motivation'. Aside from dressage and sidesaddle, you will rarely see both a crop and spurs in use at the same time and spurs are considered an aid best used by advanced riders. An inexperienced rider kicking the sides of a horse while wearing spurs will likely find the ground.

As a sidesaddle rider, my whip (referred to as a cane) serves to replace the right leg's cues. I wear a 'blind spur' in competition, as it is required to appear with a spur, but this is just the metal band with no nub at all.

[oravainen]

I just strolled over this thread, and initially supressed my urge to ask for information. Until a quick googling proved unfruitful.
I've taken a try at medieval (european) combat horsemanship, and found it most interesting. Now then, medieval japanese horsemanship being just 'most interesting' to me would be a serious understatement.

Thus could some helpful soul point me to the right direction in this gargantuan realm of teh internets? As to find good sites on Japanese horsemanship
I DO realize this thread was buried a year and half ago however...

[solveig]

Noble Cousins!

Greetings from Solveig! The rather old folk dance "harugoma" suggests that the Japanese kicked their horses with the stirrups not with spurs. The Japanese stirrup has a closed front.