Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Nov 3, 2008 23:26:16 GMT -5
how would the aforementioned kabobs be prepared solveig-dono? Skewer chunks of meat and/or vegetables. Grill over charcoal. Google "kushiyaki" for recipes with different marinades.
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Post by Please Delete on Nov 4, 2008 0:00:38 GMT -5
Kushiyaki basically means that it is skewered (Skewered and Grilled). From there it can be grilled, roasted, steamed, etc. I recommend grilled or roasted with a miso sauce, like tofu dengaku. Unfortunately, I don't know if I have anything specific to give you right now other than miso is better than soy sauces for this, imho.
-Ii
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Post by solveig on Nov 4, 2008 1:51:40 GMT -5
Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Japanese feasts can easily share problems with Scandinavian feasts in some parts of North America. Basically, they should both contain a LOT of fish dishes. The only reasonable way to avoid this with a Japanese feast is to serve a strictly vegetarian feast which will make some folks even less happy. Now then, if you have access to ZGR 19.3 and can deal with Japanese, you can find a rather nice manuscript which illustrates the different trays in a feast. However, the basic pattern is as follows. 1. The first tray will have an odd number of dishes and will include both rice and soup. The rice will be on the left front and the soup on the right front. 2. The total number of dishes will be odd. 3. You may wish to include condiments. The four condiments include: hishio, so, vinegar, and gosh if I can't recall the fourth at the moment. So is the most controversial. 4. No beverages are served with the meal. However, each tray will generally include at least one soupy dish. 5. Sake can be served with snacks at the conclusion of the meal. You should prepare at least two snacks to be served with the sake. 6. It is very important to take the season into account when designing the menu. If you can deal with Japanese, you can consult a saijiki for the tea ceremony or some other appropriate saijiki. 7. Dishes are presented "mori awase" what this effectively means is that you arrange the solid elements (including those included in soup dishes) into a kind of miniature mountain or similar pattern. 8. If you want to be really really fancy, you can include a carving ceremony in your presentation. This is more or less mentioned in the Confessions of Lady Nijō. These ceremonies are being recreated in Japan these days. You can find videos on line. You may also want to take a look at the following book: ISBN:4094161619. Or you can search for 四条 at www.google.co.jp. The the famous picture scroll 『酒飯論』documents somewhat officious carving of both fish and poultry.
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Post by Please Delete on Nov 4, 2008 2:37:42 GMT -5
Before we plan a full feast, let's ask: What is it that you are looking for? If you are simply looking for a Japanese dish that could be palatable to non-piscevorous Westerners, then kushiyaki is parobably a good choice. If you want a full meal, then I'd ask "what are you planning?" That said, I had some other comments based on Throndardottir-hime's reply: 1. The first tray will have an odd number of dishes and will include both rice and soup. The rice will be on the left front and the soup on the right front. Do we have any good period sources for the placement of soup and rice? For the Heian recreation of a meal, btw, the rice was served heaped in the middle, and there was no soup, but for a basic honzen, ichiju-sansai-style I agree that soup and rice generally come out in the first course. Should probably also mention that all dishes would be already plated in individual servings. A Heian period meal can get away with a more Chinese 'family dining' style, with trays heaped with food, with perhaps individual servings for high table. One way to do this is to get everyone to bring 5 or more small dishes, with their name taped to the bottom with masking tape. The trays are still an issue. I wouldn't include 'so' as a condiment with a honzen-style meal. Maybe Heian. Even then, the 'condiments' I'd recommend are Salt, Vinegar, Hishio (similar to miso), and irizake. I'd consider 'so' more in line with pickles or other dishes. I believe sake can be served during the meal, but it should be rationed. People shouldn't 'go wild' until the after-dinner drinking party I believe that in the "Confessions of Lady Nijo" she talks about how the ritual sake drinking went over the top when, instead of taking three small cups of sake, the guests did 3x3 toasts. For an SCA feast, though soup should be enough, I highly recommend pitchers of water be available for thirsty attendees. This seems to really mix your time periods and menu styles. On the initial question: if you want meat, pork is rare but doable (I suspect it will be as close to boar as beef is to buffalo, but I have not had enough wild boar to know). I'd be more inclined to recommend chicken, as it was more common and available. Not only that, but more people might object to pork than to chicken. Skewers can work for either. Ah, it just came to me: Think 'satay' style, but with a miso sauce instead of peanut sauce. Or, if you have ever had 'yakitori' then you know exactly what we are talking about, as yakitori is usually a kind of kushiyaki (yakitori = grilled chicken, usually served on skewers; kushiyaki can include fleisch as well as fowl). -Ii
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Post by Water_Tengu on Nov 4, 2008 18:28:34 GMT -5
i am actually not doing a japanese feast, i am doing a "Tour of East Asia". But i will be doing two japanese courses, and a sake/tea "party" after. but i will have a chinese course and a something else course as well.
thank you for all of the responses, i will read them later as i am pressed for time right now.
*EDIT* - thank you ii-dono, i do know what yakitori is, that will be easy and a great thing to help educate these midrealmers. i have decided on my other course, i will be doing mongolian. So the feast will proceed with a set of japanese appetizers already on the table, a course of chinese, a course of mongolian, and a course of japanese to finish, followed by a sake/tea "party". (this way there will be three courses not four) i plan to serve tea with the meal only because i am still dealing with mostly European people, and i believe that if Yawata Saburou Tadamori was in the Middle Kingdom, he would adapt certain things to be easily unserstood and done by the europeans occupying the area, without compromising all that he is.
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Post by solveig on Nov 5, 2008 21:33:34 GMT -5
Ii dono!
Greetings from Solveig!What is your source for your statement about the rice and the lack of soup? Sei Shonagon bitched about how carpenters ate their meal of rice, soup, and "vegetables". I believe that a preference for an odd number of dishes arises from Yin-Yang theory. That said, the Heian period is quite complicated as the Heian court is supposed to have dined at Chinese style banquets for part of this or at least the Nara period. You are quite correct about this. I think that I forgot to mention it, because it was so obvious to me.While you may choose to do this for practical reasons, I doubt that this particular practice was followed in the Heian court. It can be justified for some farm house meals.As I mentioned, 'so' is quite controversial.
I do fear that I did conflate a couple of different periods. 『山内料理書』depicts honzen style meals more or less as I described, except of course condiments were absent. Condiments do appear in Heian period banquets. First, the individual dishes tend to be laid out in a rectilinear grid. Second, kagami mochi can substitute for boiled rice. Here our evidence primarily applies to drinking banquets, so you may see a shallow dish for sake. This may take the place of soup. However, the rice still remains on the left.
Yes, there are sketches of banquets which include a small dish of salt. However, hishio (similar to soy sauce) and vinegar are much more frequently encountered.
The closest that you see to "family style" at a formal banquet is for a combination of individual servings of essentials with a selection of delicacies arranged between facing diners.
Watanabe Michiko does include 蘇 so in a list of Nara period condiments and seasoning of the nobility in 『日本食生活史』. Other items include 飴 ame (a kind of sugar), 塩 shio (salt), hishio (a for runner of soy sauce), and 酒 sake.
Oh, we do have evidence for sake saucers being included in large meals. However, I do think that the ritual sake drinking was separated from this and involved snacks. Certainly, this was the case by the Muromachi period.
While this probably is a good idea from the standpoint of practicality, I doubt that there is any good reason to think of this as a period practice. If you want to do something radical, you might serve yogurt drink. That is another possible interpretation for so.
So, how do you propose to arrange things? We see moriawase food arrangement in iconographic evidence where we can actually make out the food. For example, the image of varieties of 唐菓子 tōgashi (Chinese sweets) on page 92 of Watanabe. Similar presentation can be found for food served on round pedestal tables (an earlier style than the zen) on page 106 of Watanabe. There is small, but extant, evidence for skewers in formal dining. There is rather more evidence for artistic cutting and arranging prior to service. While skewers work fine for street food and robata down home food, skewers generally conflict with formal dining. They can show up, but generally not with meat. Rather, ginko nuts and some sweets will show up on skewers which in extreme cases can actually be pine needles. Normally, yakimono (including food cooked on skewers) is arranged in bite sized pieces on a dish prior to service. Fish can sometimes be an exception to this practice, as it is possible to dissect fish with chopsticks without making a mess. However, a whole fish might also be reserved to be eaten later.
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Post by Please Delete on Nov 5, 2008 22:53:55 GMT -5
What is your source for your statement about the rice and the lack of soup? Sei Shonagon bitched about how carpenters ate their meal of rice, soup, and quot;vegetables". I believe that a preference for an odd number of dishes arises from Yin-Yang theory. That said, the Heian period is quite complicated as the Heian court is supposed to have dined at Chinese style banquets for part of this or at least the Nara period. My source for not serving in an ichiju-sansai style? I need to dig it out but an imperial banquet served in the 10th century. Research was conducted by the chefs at Rokusei and I have their information around here somewhere. Nonetheless, my main question had not to do with ichiju-sansai style meals per se. Rather, you mentioned a specific placement of the dishes before the diner. I was curious where you found this tidbit, as I've seen similar rules for modern dining but have not found evidence that it was a hard and fast rule for Japanese. I guess what I'm getting at is that perhaps what we need to start to do is break down, as best we can, the order of different types of meals. As we conflate the various practices we end up creating something not unlike a 'medieval' feast that has a Roman, a Norse, and an Elizabethan course: Sure, you might have found all of those dining styles in England at some time, but not at the same table. I guess what I'm thinking in the 'family dining' approach is something like this: flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/277243547/in/set-72157600771310022/They are not the large plates we typically associate with meals, but the arrangements I see lead me to believe that the dishes would have been passed around, with diners taking a little of each. I should try to find the heaps of fruit or similar dishes that I've seen, where I cannot imagine one plate was for a single person. That's what I think of for 'family style'. Such as when I go out to a Chinese restaurant for dim sum: We get individual rice and soup bowls, and tea, and then everything else is arranged between the diners. I'll have to look at this again. Unfortunately, I'm missing quite a few books at the moment... something I believe you are all to familiar with. Still, I'd love to hear any more on thoughts you have. This is really spurring me to restart the research I was doing on this and turn it into a full-fledged paper of some kind. It was from the practical side that I was coming. I think that it depends greatly on the dish being served. I wouldn't, for example, think of piling up something such as saba shioyaki, generally speaking, if I'm doing single servings. I guess it also depends on the size of each dish being served. I agree here, but the question was for 'kushiyaki'. For formal dining, something else is probably more appropriate, but this goes back to the primary issue: Before we expound on all of this, shouldn't we find out what the cook wants to do? For example, if their goal was to do a small lunch at an event, this might be absolutely perfect. -Ii
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Post by solveig on Nov 5, 2008 23:12:33 GMT -5
I guess what I'm thinking in the 'family dining' approach is something like this: flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/277243547/in/set-72157600771310022/They are not the large plates we typically associate with meals, but the arrangements I see lead me to believe that the dishes would have been passed around, with diners taking a little of each. I should try to find the heaps of fruit or similar dishes that I've seen, where I cannot imagine one plate was for a single person. As you probably recall, one of diarists wrote that gentlemen should "pick at their food". You should also understand that there were definite display aspects to these dishes. A group of scholars recently organized a conference session specifically dealing with food which was not actually intended to be eaten. As I mentioned earlier, I have iconographic evidence for pairs of diners with individual items near them, and shared items placed between them. However, this configuration is replicated with adjacent diners.The problem is that I don't know of much, if any, evidence for this in Japan. Rather, individual place settings with individual servings appear to be more the norm.I sympathize. I've been there. I do believe that I currently have most of my Japanese research collection out on shelves at the moment.Quite possibly not. The whole problem with lunch is that lunch developed comparatively late in period, and early forms had rather distinctive structure in which stuff served on skewers has no place. Rather, you should think of a proto bento box.
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Post by Water_Tengu on Nov 5, 2008 23:42:35 GMT -5
I agree here, but the question was for 'kushiyaki'. For formal dining, something else is probably more appropriate, but this goes back to the primary issue: Before we expound on all of this, shouldn't we find out what the cook wants to do? For example, if their goal was to do a small lunch at an event, this might be absolutely perfect. -Ii I am doing a dinner for about 110 or so, this includes head table, and i want to wow, but I also realize that 99% of all the people wttending will think japanese meal and expect bundles of sushi and that's it. I am mostly going for just an exploration of japanese, mongolian, and chinese dishes that are away from the assumed ordinary. yawata saburou tadamori would have wanted to show the world his people and their ways, espiecally the ways that no one else knew about. would kushiyaki not have been used for a dinner at all though? that is the exact style i was thinking of serving with. it is just european-like enough to not warp their minds, but still keep that east asian flair.
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Post by solveig on Nov 6, 2008 12:33:23 GMT -5
Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! I am doing a dinner for about 110 or so, this includes head table, and i want to wow, but I also realize that 99% of all the people wttending will think japanese meal and expect bundles of sushi and that's it. The problem with this is that the sushi that people will expect is pretty much post-period. In period, sushi was pretty much pickled fish. That depends on the specific time period. There are times when this would be quite true. However, there were others when Japan became more inward directed. There are problems with this. One is that tea drinking of this sort is clearly post-period. Further, you will have difficulty keeping tea from fermenting during service. As a practical matter, the number of dishes required for a full-up Japanese feast is very difficult. However, you should serve a few more dishes individually if you at all can. OK - HERE IS A GOOD JUSTIFICATION FOR "FAMILY STYLE" DINING. The place that comes closest to this style in Japan is the Monastic Dining Hall. Have your banquet be part of some sort of "retreat" and suddenly you achieve a situation where the diners are using their own dishes and food is served in bulk. If you wish to recreate the proportions of a Japanese banquet, then you need to have lots of rice and lots of soup with plentiful seconds. Other items are generally in smaller amounts and are presented in such a way as to look plentiful. Any condiments such as hishio, salt, vinegar, &c. should also be served individually. Pickled vegetables should be served at the end of the meal. These are eaten at the end of the meal. They are actually grasped with the chopsticks and used as scrubbers to clean your bowls. Be sure to provide large serving chopsticks or spoons for your shared dishes. One more thing, as far as I know, there is no evidence for Japanese using knives at table until the nineteenth century. So, stuff needs to either be bite sized, liquid, or separable using chopsticks.
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Post by Water_Tengu on Nov 6, 2008 13:42:02 GMT -5
Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! I am doing a dinner for about 110 or so, this includes head table, and i want to wow, but I also realize that 99% of all the people wttending will think japanese meal and expect bundles of sushi and that's it. The problem with this is that the sushi that people will expect is pretty much post-period. In period, sushi was pretty much pickled fish. That is why i mentioned it, to show that I am serving to European people who couldn't tell the difference between miso and hoshi. i am not saying that the general populace of the place would, i am saying yawata saburou tadamori (me) would have. 1. i believe you may be misunderstanding, i do not want to replicate a japanese feast, i want to feed and educate. i am not doing this to replicate, i am doing this to do what i love, feed and educate. 2. i was planning on the serving chopsticks and spoons, and i knew about the knives, but thank you for reminding me to write it down.
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Post by solveig on Nov 6, 2008 16:56:13 GMT -5
Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! That is why i mentioned it, to show that I am serving to European people who couldn't tell the difference between miso and hoshi. Ahhh! Pretty much everybody here knows what sort of folks show up for SCA events. I've been around since AS XI. If you are going to serve exotic food, then you should serve period exotic food. Then why enquire about the "Order of courses in Japanese feasts" in the first place? As for educating, unless you are interested in serving very very unfamiliar sushi, then you should leave it off the menu. Folks all too often forget that none of us are mind readers.
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Post by Water_Tengu on Nov 6, 2008 17:49:28 GMT -5
Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig![ Then why enquire about the "Order of courses in Japanese feasts" in the first place? As for educating, unless you are interested in serving very very unfamiliar sushi, then you should leave it off the menu. i am not serving any sushi, i was not enquiring about the order of courses, only about the kushiyaki and what it is.
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Post by Please Delete on Nov 6, 2008 19:40:55 GMT -5
Then why enquire about the "Order of courses in Japanese feasts" in the first place? As for educating, unless you are interested in serving very very unfamiliar sushi, then you should leave it off the menu. I believe you are talking at cross-purposes. The Water_Tengu 'resurrected' the thread because it was the one that made mention of kushiyaki. Look at the date of the posts. Water_Tengu said *nothing* about serving sushi except that it is what people would expect. 'Educating' had, I believe, more to do with the service of items not expected by westerners to be part of a Japanese feast. So, the question here is: how to serve kushiyaki (and maybe a few other things) as a single course within a larger pan-Asian celebratory feast. This is only minimally concerned with period presentation and has everything to do with presenting a culinary review of multiple cultures, or so I would assume. -Ii
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Post by Water_Tengu on Nov 6, 2008 22:27:31 GMT -5
you have read my mind, and expressed it better than i ever could have ii-dono, thank you, that is exactly what i wanted to say.
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