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Post by solveig on Mar 9, 2010 14:42:17 GMT -5
Noble Cousin!
Greetings from Solveig! Thank you for the book recommendation. The medieval shield described in your quote is called a "tate".
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Post by roninpenguin on Mar 19, 2010 13:04:58 GMT -5
One of the things that I have added to my weapons repertoire is what I call my "Broken Spear". It is a 5 foot tall weapon with a 2 foot blade on one end and a thrusting tip on each end. When someone asks what it is I tell them that my Yari broke and I am using it as a secondary with my Uchigatana, when asked why I can thrust with the back end I tell them that is part of the Tang sticking out the end. So the style I end up fighting is Madu and Short Sword just in a Japanese context.
Now while I am still better at taking on shields with my Tachi then this style, I know that in the long run this style takes advantage of more of the SCA's rules and after I get good at it I should be able to go even with more shield men.
The main point of this is, if you want to fight a certain style just fight it. If you want to come up with some cute story of how your style fits your persona that is cool too, but we have Italians from 1500 fighting in English armor from 1100 using a German sword from 1300 and no one bats an eye, why should it mater to Japanese persona (except on a personal level)?
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Post by dannyinjapan on Sept 1, 2010 0:39:48 GMT -5
My two cents on the shield issue:
1. I believe the Jingasa (war hat) is actually the Indian singauta (shield) brought to Japan by Vedic peoples in the 1100's. (along with much of what we know today as Japanese martial arts.) I think the Japanese just found the jingasa better suited to head protection than being carried as a shield.
2. Japanese people place tradition and the observance of tradition at a level close to, and sometime higher than, survival itself. What that means is that Japanese will resist change like you wouldn't believe. "If nobody used shields before, then they won't use them now" sort of idea. (Even if it would have saved lives)
So did they know about shields and how to use them? I have no doubt.
Did they refuse to use them out of some sense of personal honor? I sincerely doubt it.
Better to die doing it the way it has always been done than to try something new.
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spearweasel
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"See? That was nothing. But that's how it always begins. Very small."
Posts: 238
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Post by spearweasel on Sept 7, 2010 16:06:37 GMT -5
My two cents on the shield issue: 1. I believe the Jingasa (war hat) is actually the Indian singauta (shield) brought to Japan by Vedic peoples in the 1100's. (along with much of what we know today as Japanese martial arts.) I think the Japanese just found the jingasa better suited to head protection than being carried as a shield. 2. Japanese people place tradition and the observance of tradition at a level close to, and sometime higher than, survival itself. What that means is that Japanese will resist change like you wouldn't believe. "If nobody used shields before, then they won't use them now" sort of idea. (Even if it would have saved lives) So did they know about shields and how to use them? I have no doubt. Did they refuse to use them out of some sense of personal honor? I sincerely doubt it. Better to die doing it the way it has always been done than to try something new. I think you are overstating things. 1) The jingasa is an iron version of the existing civilian straw hat. You don't need to invoke Lemurian UFO's carrying Atlantean crystal psionic hats to Japan in order to explain it. ;D I'm kidding. Seriously though, it's just an iron hat, says so right on the label. 2) The Japanese aren't that conservative... neither were medieval Japanese; they just didn't often fight external opponents. They were thus rarely pushed to change how they did things. Samurai gear and techniques worked for the situations they faced - when they didn't, they adapted as quickly as anyone else. Consider the rapidity of the adoption of firearms, and the evolution of volley tactics and other things. |
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Post by Yamanouchi Eidou on Sept 28, 2010 1:08:09 GMT -5
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spearweasel
New Member
"See? That was nothing. But that's how it always begins. Very small."
Posts: 238
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Post by spearweasel on Sept 28, 2010 12:32:18 GMT -5
EEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!  I'm gonna get a center-grip round shield, paint it to look like a straw hat, and tape the Kuniyoshi picture on the inside. My no-shield problem is solved! ;D |
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Post by dannyinjapan on Sept 29, 2010 23:51:40 GMT -5
[quote author=spearweasel board=arms thread=2722 post=29580 time=1283893597
I think you are overstating things.
1) The jingasa is an iron version of the existing civilian straw hat. You don't need to invoke Lemurian UFO's carrying Atlantean crystal psionic hats to Japan in order to explain it. ;D I'm kidding. Seriously though, it's just an iron hat, says so right on the label.
2) The Japanese aren't that conservative... neither were medieval Japanese; they just didn't often fight external opponents. They were thus rarely pushed to change how they did things. Samurai gear and techniques worked for the situations they faced - when they didn't, they adapted as quickly as anyone else. Consider the rapidity of the adoption of firearms, and the evolution of volley tactics and other things.
[/quote]
1. I could run off a list of Indian/Vedic weapons that exist nowhere else but in India and Japan, not to mention religious conecpts, etc.. That culture and language were introduced from India at that time, there is no doubt.
2. You don't know the Japanese. This "conservatism" as you call it is one of their central values.
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Post by Yamanouchi Eidou on Sept 30, 2010 1:26:01 GMT -5
1.) It is a matter of Historical Record that external culture and language were introduced to Japan by Koreans who were sent by the Chinese to teach the backwards barbarians how to read and write. Japanese Buddhism comes from China, not India. Furthermore, in response to your previous comments concerning Indian shields, the term Jingasa (as our own spearweasel points out) is made up of two kanji that do in fact mean "metal hat" having been related to the single kanji kasa which translates as either hat or umbrella. Even if the two words were related there is little to no evidence to suggest that the Japanese ever used metal hats as shields before or after their use as headgear. Even the example I have provided is a straw hat as evidenced by the arrows piercing through it.
2.) I do know the Japanese. Conservatism is not a central value as much as respect for culture, group mindset, and social and ergonomic efficiency are central values that are misrepresented by gaikokujin as extreme conservatism. In fact, we may see that the Japanese are very willing to alter their terms of warfare by the incredibly quick adoption of firearms upon their introduction into Japan.
First brought to Japan by the dutch, firearms were immediately grabbed up by warlords and handed over to their weaponsmiths to copy and begin using actively. In fact, within a single century of the introduction of firearms, Musashi notes in his Go Rin no Sho that firearms are the standard for defending castles without mentioning any special or exotic nature of the implements. Clearly it was already in the Japanese mindset that firearms were old hat.
We may also see that in the short time the Portuguese were in Japan the Japanese began adopting clothing, food, and even armor pieces into their lives with no fuss whatsoever.
It is much more reasonable a conclusion that there was simply no need for shields in Samurai warfare. Specifics of warfare are always a distinct product of the culture from which they come. Between the rocky conditions of Japan's Terrain, the placement of samurai on the battlefield as mounted and mobile archers, and The common use of two handed weapons by both rank and file soldiers (yari) and samurai (katana) alike, shields and shield walls simply become impractical. Conservative or otherwise, the Japanese are nothing if they are not pragmatic.
We may also dismiss an argument of codified Bushido and honor codes as these do not exist until relatively late in Japanese history, well into the Edo Jidai beginning with the mid 1700's publication of Tsunetomo's Hagakure.
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spearweasel
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"See? That was nothing. But that's how it always begins. Very small."
Posts: 238
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Post by spearweasel on Sept 30, 2010 8:43:58 GMT -5
[quote author=spearweasel board=arms thread=2722 post=29580 time=1283893597 I think you are overstating things. 1) The jingasa is an iron version of the existing civilian straw hat. You don't need to invoke Lemurian UFO's carrying Atlantean crystal psionic hats to Japan in order to explain it. ;D I'm kidding. Seriously though, it's just an iron hat, says so right on the label. 2) The Japanese aren't that conservative... neither were medieval Japanese; they just didn't often fight external opponents. They were thus rarely pushed to change how they did things. Samurai gear and techniques worked for the situations they faced - when they didn't, they adapted as quickly as anyone else. Consider the rapidity of the adoption of firearms, and the evolution of volley tactics and other things. 1. I could run off a list of Indian/Vedic weapons that exist nowhere else but in India and Japan, not to mention religious conecpts, etc.. That culture and language were introduced from India at that time, there is no doubt. 2. You don't know the Japanese. This "conservatism" as you call it is one of their central values. [/quote] 1) I've read your other posts, and remain unconvinced on the matter of a hat being a shield. Plainly, there IS doubt on that point. As for Indian cultural influences on East Asia in general, I wasn't aware that was in dispute. 2) I definitely don't know the Japanese. I haven't been interested in things Japanese since I was a child. I've never lived there, I didn't get my MA in Japanese Studies, I didn't do my thesis on the eschatology of Nichiren, I didn't go to Uni Chicago to work on a PhD in Japanese History ( didn't finish, sadly), and I haven't been a participant in discussions here for years. I wouldn't have a clue. I just make things up because of my mental disorder. It's like an East Asian Topical Tourette's. Pity me, I can't help it.  |
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Post by Yamanouchi Eidou on Sept 30, 2010 8:51:29 GMT -5
Ararara. Yakitate!
(I've just now decided that Yakitate should be used as the Japanese equivalent of "Burn!")
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Post by Yagyu Jubei Takemori on Sept 30, 2010 14:16:24 GMT -5
Im going to have to go with Spearweasle on this one. The fact that the Japanese didnt fight external sources often was evident when the Mongols invaded. They wiped the floor with the Japanese. Given the tactics that were common then, the Japanese had no idea how to counter the mongols.
As far as sheilds go, the long and short of it is that there really wernt any. They had the pavide like sheild, but that was more of a portable obstacle and not a real "shield". There are certainly may alternatives to using one. I currently have a side strapped "fan" its a 3/4" peice of plywood cut out into the shape of a fan that I use. I have also used a short spear (read madu w/o buckler attachment) 2nd inverted sword, and round sheild. I think that if I am to go with a defensive offhand in the long run, I am going to take a rattan stick, curve it, shape it alot, and shine the thing up pretty black and dress it to look like a scabbard and use that for a blocking inplement, thus fighting sword and scabbard.
That may have been rambling but hey....
Oh and how do I catch East Asia Tropical Tourettes it sounds fun =P
Edit: changed turrets to tourettes
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Post by Yamanouchi Eidou on Sept 30, 2010 18:53:24 GMT -5
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Post by solveig on Sept 30, 2010 23:43:24 GMT -5
Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! The fact that the Japanese didnt fight external sources often was evident when the Mongols invaded. They wiped the floor with the Japanese. Given the tactics that were common then, the Japanese had no idea how to counter the mongols. Check out the book: In Little Need of Divine Intervention ISBN: 188544513X Apparently the Japanese did a much better job of fighting the mongols than divine wind mythology would have us believe. |
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Post by Yagyu Jubei Takemori on Oct 1, 2010 10:26:49 GMT -5
Cool, I got most of the story of that encounter from mongolian history books so it shows more favorably to the mongols.
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Post by dannyinjapan on Oct 1, 2010 11:15:08 GMT -5
While I never said anything about Buddhism, I did say something about Indian religious practices. If you look at a map showing the building of temples in Japan, they do not occur in time from south to north as with everything else. The suddenly appeared in central Japan and then spread both directions. That fact alone tells you that this was not a case of cultural diffusion from the coast, but a punctuated colonization. Add to that the fact that some other concepts were not found in China, but only in the place of origin and the point of destination and there is little to argue about. Specific results can be debated.
Regardless of what they write in books, the Japanese really only have one religion: Japanese history. Buddhism and Shintosim are really just superficial coatings over the true faith. The most sacred thing they have is their history. They still worship dead ancestors and the sun itself, as a matter of fact. I did not appreciate being woken at 5am on New Year's day to be driven to a freezing-cold beach to watch the sun rise while everyone recited various prayers.
7 years of living, marriage, birth, divorce, funerals, working, teaching and going to the bathroom with Japanese - I am pretty set in my opinions.
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