Sode Jirushi

[tengumoon]

I am trying to figure out the shoulder banners

Has anyone got any images of how these were attached?

All I can find at the moment is they were on the right sode and were about 7-8 inches long

The kasa jirushi seemed to be hang from a horizontal stick that was tied to the ring at the back of the kabuto but I cannot find anything on the sode banners

If it was just tied to a single ring then it will flap about madly in battle and I guess it would be a major nuisance

any ideas? images? clues?

thanks in advance

Kenji

[Katayama Hiromoto]

Mar 14, 2009 20:45:34 GMT -5 tengumoon said:

I am trying to figure out the shoulder banners.

Has anyone got any images of how these were attached?

any ideas? images? clues?

Yamamoto-dono,

You might have a look here:

www.pbase.com/joanseeuw/samurai

Sincerely,

Katayama

[Saionji Shonagon]

Here's Date Saburou Yukiie wearing his.



There's a drawing of sode jirushi in the Osprey edition of Samurai Heraldry by Turnbull (Color plate B on page 34 at the bottom right) and it appears that it's simply tied through the lacing high and toward the rear of the right sode. It's about the size of a book mark.

EDIT: Some of the samurai in the Soma Noma Oi gallery Katayama-dono just posted are wearing very large jirushi. If you're concerned about something getting in the way, I should think smaller would be the way to go.

[tengumoon]

Wow that gallery is impressive - thganks for the link

thank you for the pics Makiwara-dono

In the Yoriaku it states that jirushi go on the rigth side but in all the pics I see it is on the left sode
I am playing in the SCA as a samurai - big and flashy is the only way to go! *grin*

I note that there are 2 types - the small and the large
Is there any info on what was historically written upon them?
The smaller one appears to be the crest / mon with writing on the larger one

any ideas how these were attached?

Can anyone clarify?

[Saionji Shonagon]

Mar 15, 2009 1:26:03 GMT -5 tengumoon said:

In the Yoriaku it states that jirushi go on the rigth side but in all the pics I see it is on the left sode

Translation error, maybe? I don't know.

any ideas how these were attached?

Hard to be sure on Date-dono's photos, but the
Soma Noma Oi people appear to have a small rod threaded through the tops of their jirushi. (May I suggest whatever you use gets wrapped with strapping tape in case of breakage?) There also appears to be cord at the center top of the rod that is most likely threaded through one of the laces at the top of the sode and tied off.

k41.pbase.com/v3/44/442144/1/47612196.CRW_4991.jpg

Given that Soma Noma Oi is an equestrian competition as much as it is an historical re-enactment, I can't help but wonder whether they may be using the small yellow sode jirushi as the equivalent of these:
photos-ak.sparkpeople.com/6/5/l650243437.jpg
www.pbase.com/joanseeuw/image/47612465

[Rokurou]

Tomodachi,

I believe Date's sode jirushi is tied through two grommeted holes in the kanmuri ita (the top curvy part of the sode). Mine is tied in a similar manner. And yes, it's just tied on. The knot is on the side that cannot be seen. I hope this helps.

Rokurou

[tengumoon]

thanks everyone - that makes sense

putting it on the left sode makes mroe sense as Japanese are traditionally rigth handed and on the left keeps it out of the way

for SCA use it should be good enough to keep the big fancy ones for tournaments and wars

I was planning on putting a personal crest one one and a cool haiku on the big version

another question tho - what do you use to make it? just normal material? and what to paint on it with?

[Saionji Shonagon]

Mar 15, 2009 22:04:29 GMT -5 tengumoon said:

another question tho - what do you use to make it? just normal material?

Why wouldn't it be?

Acrylic paints work very nicely on fabric. Some are specifically formulated for fabric painting and can be heat-set with a conventional steam iron.

[tengumoon]

Mar 15, 2009 23:42:29 GMT -5 Saionji Shonagon said:

Why wouldn't it be?

because I am a moron when it comes to materials

thanks for the response tho - it helps

[Saionji Shonagon]

Mar 16, 2009 4:00:30 GMT -5 tengumoon said:

because I am a moron when it comes to materials

I think you just got a little overwhelmed by the simplicity of it.

[Kano Hiroyoshi]

So what's the consensus? Left shoulder or right?
Would it be horrible to have one on each shoulder (i.e. a favor from my lady on one, my device on the other)?

[solveig]

Noble Cousin!

Greetings from Solveig!

Jul 13, 2009 11:55:47 GMT -5 Kano Hiroyoshi said:

So what's the consensus? Left shoulder or right?
Would it be horrible to have one on each shoulder (i.e. a favor from my lady on one, my device on the other)?

Favors in the SCA have diverged from medieval practice. Regardless, it sounds like you are trying discuss kamon. Here is what I have seen.

1. The business about five kamon placed on specific spots on the kosode is at best late period.
2. There are interesting examples of a regular arrangement of two kamon on the cloth which is sewn into a kosoede.
3. There are examples of soldiers wearing a different kamon on their jinbaori or their sashimono flag than the kamon displayed on their clothing.

The business about favors is derived from a practice in tournament culture. The Japanese do not appear to have developed a similar practice.

Now then, I went and looked up 袖印 sodejirushi. It appears that these are primarily amulets.


blog-imgs-29-origin.fc2.com/k/a/s/kashinya/DSC02830.jpg


homepage3.nifty.com/oshio-revolt-museum2/en10-8-5.htm

After looking at some of the pictures posted to this discussion, I believe that you are looking for the following:

Another small banner can be suspended from a ring mounted to the back of the helmet. However, I'm not sure where that picture went to at the moment.

And for you hand held shield people:


Both images are from ISBN:4-7601-2533-7 which is a book that all of you arms and armor people should seriously consider picking up. I first ran across it at Ogami shugo's house.

[solveig]

Noble Cousin!

Greetings from Solveig!

Jul 13, 2009 11:55:47 GMT -5 Kano Hiroyoshi said:

So what's the consensus? Left shoulder or right?
Would it be horrible to have one on each shoulder (i.e. a favor from my lady on one, my device on the other)?

Samurai from saburau means servant. The various banners attached to your armor identifies who you serve. There are also special banners to indicate messengers. Your personal kamon should go on the clothes which you wear on your body. There is even an example of someone wearing a jinbaori with a different kamon on it than the clothing that he wore underneath.

[Kano Hiroyoshi]

Jul 13, 2009 16:57:15 GMT -5 solveig said:

Noble Cousin!

Greetings from Solveig!

Samurai from saburau means servant. The various banners attached to your armor identifies who you serve. There are also special banners to indicate messengers. Your personal kamon should go on the clothes which you wear on your body. There is even an example of someone wearing a jinbaori with a different kamon on it than the clothing that he wore underneath.

So if I was fighting at an inter-kingdom event, I would put my kingdom colors on my shoulder. (Although at that point, I would probably just use a sashimono instead)

[divamobile]

Here is a Sode Jurishi

pin.it/O5iUK_T

Hope it helps