|
|
Post by Yasaki Tadahira on Mar 20, 2009 23:46:43 GMT -5
Im still at a point my web surfing is hard and not getting me what im sure i need.
I was accepted to a household, House Incomplete. I would like to use Incomplete, in japanese as my surname (they are my family).
I found "mikansei" but like all words there are lots of different translations.
The Knight of the house some over 30 years ago in his first turnament in the west did not have his own surname and was announced in the list as Thomas the Incomplete. He kept it.
So im looking for the right way to say it and to be sure it can work.
Thanks!!!!
|
|
|
|
Post by Please Delete on Mar 21, 2009 1:57:57 GMT -5
Im still at a point my web surfing is hard and not getting me what im sure i need. I was accepted to a household, House Incomplete. I would like to use Incomplete, in japanese as my surname (they are my family). I found "mikansei" but like all words there are lots of different translations. The Knight of the house some over 30 years ago in his first turnament in the west did not have his own surname and was announced in the list as Thomas the Incomplete. He kept it. So im looking for the right way to say it and to be sure it can work. Thanks!!!! Okay, I'm going to be blunt: In all likelihood, it isn't doable in any method that looks period. Sorry, but unless you find the surname out there somewhere, surnames are more than just putting words together, and most Japanese words like that are actually the "Chinese" word with a Japanese pronunciation, meaning that they don't sound at all like a Japanese name. That said, let's look at our options... 1) Choose a surname that sounds similar. I doubt there's one out there, but you can look and see if there is one. 2) Use some form of your Knight's name, or at least phonetically. For instance, you could use the "Thom.." and choose something like "Tomoyuki" as a name. This was a common means of showing descent or simply appreciation. 3) You can take an adana or religious name, which is much more free. I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but we could probably through something Buddhist together that implies "Incomplete", as I could definitely see this as a spiritual phrase--we'd just need to find it or something similar that would show it is reasonable. There may be other means of going after this, but there's what I can think of right off the top of my head. -Ii |
|
|
|
Post by Water_Tengu on Mar 21, 2009 18:07:20 GMT -5
what about a word for a being with no internal kami? Or possibly some form of "unenlightened" to show an incomplete union with the universe if you really prefer a buddhist take.
|
|
|
|
Post by solveig on Mar 21, 2009 23:11:45 GMT -5
Noble Cousin!
Greetings from Solveig! "Incomplete" very well may not be accepted as an SCA name today. Remember that your knight has been in a long long time. He is "grandfathered", but you are not.
However, as already suggested, you might take a name in religion which could possibly suggest incompletion in some sense. 無 (mu) NOT. Might show up in a name in religion. However, the exact structure of these names varies by sect. Also, unless you want to shave your head and become a full time monk, this would be a sort of secondary name. This means that you should start out by designing a regular Japanese name, and then slot in this extra name.
You might try for something like 宗無 (Sōmu = Perfect Nothingness) as a name in religion, but names in religion are generally somewhat aspirational.
|
|
|
|
Post by Yasaki Tadahira on Mar 22, 2009 23:00:27 GMT -5
'Okay, I'm going to be blunt: In all likelihood, it isn't doable in any method that looks period. Sorry, but unless you find the surname out there somewhere, surnames are more than just putting words together, and most Japanese words like that are actually the "Chinese" word with a Japanese pronunciation, meaning that they don't sound at all like a Japanese name."
Just to be sure your saying that the word itself is the issue?
I was just going on teh SCA context that house/clan were interchangeable (as i have seen) and it would mean that my surname would be my clan name.
That said, let's look at our options...
1) Choose a surname that sounds similar. I doubt there's one out there, but you can look and see if there is one.
"in english or japanese? guess ill understand this when my first question is answered.
2) Use some form of your Knight's name, or at least phonetically. For instance, you could use the "Thom.." and choose something like "Tomoyuki" as a name. This was a common means of showing descent or simply appreciation.
"ok, but what would i add to thom and what would it mean?"
3) You can take an adana or religious name, which is much more free. I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but we could probably through something Buddhist together that implies "Incomplete", as I could definitely see this as a spiritual phrase--we'd just need to find it or something similar that would show it is reasonable.
"But wouldn't a religious name be a third one? and i would have to have a Buddhist persona, which i don't mind but i dont want to change that much more in dress/knowledge, i allready know too little as is."
There may be other means of going after this, but there's what I can think of right off the top of my head.
No matter what thanks all for the help!!
|
|
Saionji Shonagon
New Member
One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
|
Post by Saionji Shonagon on Mar 22, 2009 23:36:38 GMT -5
Just to be sure your saying that the word itself is the issue? I was just going on teh SCA context that house/clan were interchangeable (as i have seen) and it would mean that my surname would be my clan name. SCA context has little to do with naming practices. Households have no "official" status in the SCA, they're just a bunch of people who have come together because of a mutual interest or friendship. Japanese nicknames and naming practices work differently than European ones. Sir Thomas' appellation follows in the tradition of European kings with names like "Charles the Bald" and "Philippe le Bel" (Philip the Fair). According to www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/miscellany.html one only sees these sort of nicknames or "adana" used for commoners. I'm not sure there is a solution, except maybe to be Surname Given-name of House Incomplete. |
|
|
|
Post by Please Delete on Mar 23, 2009 5:51:15 GMT -5
Just to be sure your saying that the word itself is the issue? I was just going on teh SCA context that house/clan were interchangeable (as i have seen) and it would mean that my surname would be my clan name. As mentioned, your SCA household has no official standing in the SCA. When you go to register a name, all of the pieces need to conform to historical practice and be documentable. As an example I'm a member of a group called House Oschast. In the SCA, I might be known as "Ii Katsumori of House Oschast," but I would never translate "Oschast" into Japanese and use that as my "clan" (or "uji") name. Likewise, I know there are several "Takeda" and "Date" out there who are not part of the same SCA household, they just took the same surname. On the other hand, I initially chose "Saburou" because I was the third male 'child' in our Household. Saburou, or third son, is a perfectly acceptable name element and doesn't seem out of place at all. If you are registering a Japanese name, you are going to need to (mostly) stick with Japanese names. There is an exception you might be able to try: You could probably take a Portuguese Christian name. The examples here would be folks like Hosokawa Gracia, several Marias, and I'm pretty sure one of the Japanese Francis Xavier met in Goa was named "Paul". This would essentially be like taking a religious or art name. However, back to your question: Either one. It has to be Japanese, but if it sounds similar to an English or Japanese word, that's up to you. As an example, one of the many reasons I chose "Ii" was because it sounds like the modern Japanese word for "good".  Of course, if I was trying to drive home that point I probably would have done something like taken the name Ii Masayoshi or something similar. However, it is an actual Japanese surname--I found the surname first, and then realized there were other puns, etc., surrounding it. That is all up to you. Find Japanese given names and look through them. A Japanese name needs to have the following to be registered: Family name (or Uji) + Given name (common name, famous name, or religious/art name) You can have: Family name + Uji name + common name + religious/art name + famous name You wouldn't necessarily use them all (for instance, I don't know if you would ever use a religious/art name with a famous name) but you can register multiple names. Having a Buddhist persona (and most Japanese would have considered themselves Buddhist, even if they weren't very pious) doesn't mean being a priest. Look at folks such as Uesugi Kenshin and Takeda Shingen. Both of their names are technically religious. Kenshin is often depicted as more religious than Shingen. That said, it is just a suggestion. Does that clear anything up? It might help to read and re-read the information on Japanese names at sengokudaimyo.com. Once you know the rules, you can figure out how to bend them. -Ii |
|
|
|
Post by solveig on Mar 23, 2009 15:49:06 GMT -5
Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! "Shingen" is probably best thought of as a "retirement name". It basically meant that he wasn't going to have any more official children and that he would officially install his successor while he was still alive. However, Takeda Shingen never went into anything remotely resembling retirement. They even went so far as to conceal his death for quite some time so that other daimyo would think that he was still alive and in charge of things. If you have time, see Kagemusha by Kurosawa and Samurai Banners by Mifune. They are both interesting movies relating to Takeda Shingen. Other possibilities include taking an "arts name". The Japanese were every bit as much into name stacking as the Arabs are. Basically, each type of name is used for a specific purpose. If you are trying to document a name for the College of Arms, try to find someone who has a copy of Name Construction in Medieval Japan Revised Edition (Blue Cover). It will make life easier for you. Among other things, you can simply cite page numbers instead of making photocopies. If you can not find anyone locally, then try contacting the people at the Academy of St. Gabriel which is an online consulting service. gabriel@s-gabriel.org |
|
|
|
Post by Ki no Kotori on Mar 30, 2009 23:25:54 GMT -5
2) Use some form of your Knight's name, or at least phonetically. For instance, you could use the "Thom.." and choose something like "Tomoyuki" as a name. This was a common means of showing descent or simply appreciation. "ok, but what would i add to thom and what would it mean?" Not "Thom" ("th" doesn't exist in Japanese) but something like "tomo" which is a flexible name element that can be used either as a prefix or suffix. Depending on the kanji, "tomo" can have several meanings: dawn collective/band friend obligatory path knowledge tool/implement You can find the various kanji in the 2nd Edition of Solveig's book (that she describes above, the blue cover). Start at page 96, where the "tomo" element is cross-referenced and look up the pages. "tomo" can be combined in several names. A very few examples: Tomohisa Shigetomo Tomomasa and many more. These are all "Nanori" (given names) as opposed to surnames, though. Solveig's book does have a list of historical surnames on p. 315 which is useful. Check with your local herald--they might have a copy or know someone who does. Hope this helps. |
|
|
|
Post by Yamanouchi Eidou on Apr 18, 2009 0:41:32 GMT -5
Well, also, here's a fun thought.
Period Japanese Spelling is worth crap.
Ok, so there's this magical writing system called Kanji. Kanji are ideographs imported from China through Korea into Japan (Now THIS is going to be some simplified history).
In Kanji, a given character has a meaning. This meaning can be read from how the letter is written. Now, as previously stated, these kanji were imported to Japan from all across China and, in fact, at different entry points in Japan. Japanese scholars and students would learn the characters but not necessarily the same pronunciation for the characters. This leads to what are known as "Readings" which are different ways of pronouncing a given character. When you put together multiple characters into larger words, you can have all kinds of different readings for any given character.
Now, let's also note that Chinese is a highly tonal language while Japanese remains relatively even throughout its pronunciation. This leads to slough of homophony in Japanese language (homophony is where things sound the same but are spelled differently.
Ok, stay with me for a little bit and this will all make sense.
Now, The Japanese used these Chinese characters to simulate their own spoken language in writing and this took on primarily two forms. On the one hand, they would use the meanings of the characters and cobble them together into new words. On the other, they would take the character readings and match them to Japanese words. This is the basis of what is called Manyougana, or the use of Kanji exclusively for their sounds, rather than meanings.
Ok, now, it's true that many Japanese names mean something, but just hearing a name is not always necessarily enough to determine its meaning. Furthermore, a period practice by many was to scribe a name in such a way that it matched the right sounds but wasn't necessarily matched with the actual meaning. Example: There's this great portrait of Miyamoto Musashi where his name is labelled right next to him. And in this portrait his name is not written as "Musashi" (War something-something) but quite clearly as "Musa(n)shi" (Without-three-four).
Now, how this translates to the present predicament is this. Whatever name you choose to take, Buddhist or otherwise (And it's quite likely that a proper Japanese persona would in fact have different names for different occasions) it may be possible to fudge the kanji used to allow the kanji to line up to mean "incomplete". I n this way you can satisfy the requirement of having a real Japanese name (Especially as the heralds are concerned) and still give some homage to your household.
Give me some time and i can suggest some kanji to use.
|
|
Of course, if I was trying to drive home that point I probably would have done something like taken the name Ii Masayoshi or something similar. However, it is an actual Japanese surname--I found the surname first, and then realized there were other puns, etc., surrounding it.