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Post by jehimuzu on May 4, 2009 23:29:45 GMT -5
Im looking into moving to clear lake, and there is a Kendo place and an Iaido place. and i cannot decide witch one would better serve my needs . has anyone here been threw either style? if so i need your opinion on its pros and cons
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Post by Please Delete on May 5, 2009 1:40:27 GMT -5
Well, what kind of iaido and kendo? Do you have information about either? Kendo focuses more on sparring with bamboo shinai and protective gear (bogu), though it includes some work with bokken/bokuto (wooden swords). Iaido (or iaihyodo, battodo, iaijutsu, kenjutsu, etc.) works with metal swords--either mogito (false swords, sometimes called iaito, but in Japan that can refer to any sword used for iaido) or shinken (true, or sharp, swords--some use this only to refer to actual Nihonto). Some schools also use bokuto, shinai (not necessarily the same as kendo), and may have other weapons as part of the curriculum. There is also seitei iaido, which is practiced by the ZNKR, which is a set of 12 forms from various ryuha that were standardized to give kendoka an idea of what iaido is like. However, not all dojo practice seitei iai. For kendo, I would make sure that it was affiliated with a reputable organization that has ties to the ZNKR (Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei, aka All Japan Kendo Federation), as they are recognized around the world and if you go to another dojo you shouldn't have any question about ranks, etc. You can also have a certain level of confidence that you are attached to a legitimate tradition. That said, a good iaido class is generally going to allow you to work with a metal, if not steel, sword. Perhaps the most widespread are Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu or Muso Shinden Ryu iaido, but there are numerous different schools. My biggest concern, personally, would be to check the credentials of the instructor(s) and see what kind of ties they have. And don't be taken in by fancy titles, or awards from the "sokeship council," etc. There are good teachers out there and there are, unfortunately, a lot of people who seem to just want to make a buck. If you have questions about a particular school, you can always check some of the following sites and ask about them: forums.swordforum.com - Sword Forum International www.e-budo.com/ - E-budo www.koryu.com/ - Koryu.com, which isn't so much a place to ask questions as it is a resource for looking up some of the more legitimate schools. -Ii
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Post by tengumoon on May 5, 2009 7:50:57 GMT -5
iaido is rather ritualised... kendo is rather sportified...
for martial competency, you would be better off doing kenjutsu... Shinkendo is the best openly available under Obata sensei
or battojutsu - which is more technical than artistic form of iaido
tho having said that it really depends upon your reasons for wanting to do either (or any other martial art)
Ii-dono has given you some good advice
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Post by Kano Hiroyoshi on May 5, 2009 10:51:18 GMT -5
for martial competency, you would be better off doing kenjutsu... Shinkendo is the best openly available under Obata sensei or battojutsu - which is more technical than artistic form of iaido tho having said that it really depends upon your reasons for wanting to do either (or any other martial art) If you're planning on training for SCA combat, kenjutsu unfortunately doesn't translate well. A friend of my who studied kenjutsu for years has just started heavy combat and has had a hard time adjusting, especially when trying to make his blows hard enough. There's a big difference between using a shinai versus another shinai and using a rattan katana versus sword and shield. That being said, kendo and iaido are both worth doing on their own merits. Just keep in mind the concerns and suggestions others have already put forth.
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Post by Please Delete on May 5, 2009 11:24:46 GMT -5
Just to make sure that we are using the same language:
Kendo is almost universally used to describe ZNKR kendo.
"Kenjutsu" applies to any of the sword combat arts: kendo, iaido/iaijutsu, battdo/battojutsu, etc.
Iaido and battodo (or -jutsu, for either) are almost universally about starting from the saya. Battodo has been associated with many modern arts, but there are also koryu ryuha that use the term as well, which are completely different from the modern arts (most of which are descended from the 19th-20th C. Toyama Ryu).
"Shinkendo" is specifically a school of modern swordsmanship set up by Obata Toshishiro, who formed it from his study of other arts (I know Nakamura Ryu Battodo, another modern JSA, but I don't recall what else he studied). Just mentioning this because it can get confused with terms like "kendo" and "kenjutsu."
Most people tend to apply broad stereotypes to the labels because they have limited experience with JSA (Japanese Sword Arts) and use a single exemplar. IMHO, it will depend more on the dojo you study at than just about anything else.
-Ii
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Post by magnus on Jun 24, 2009 1:36:17 GMT -5
As far as I know, kenjutsu uses bokken, not shinai in practice. I've also never heard of kenjutsu used to describe all JSA as a blanket term....
Jehimuzu, if you can, do both Iai and Kendo. They will compliment each other rather nicely.
EDIT - The SCA is such a different animal on its own, I doubt that JSA will help you with much, other than kendo's timing and distance work.
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Post by konrad on Jun 24, 2009 9:54:38 GMT -5
I would agree with Magnus: Our Sensei calls them 2 wheels on the same cart.
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Post by magnus on Jun 24, 2009 12:17:20 GMT -5
Our Sensei calls them 2 wheels on the same cart. lol, I like that!
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Post by honagakenshin on Apr 7, 2010 19:15:25 GMT -5
If i could reply. Being a black belt in four diffrent martial arts and going for a fifth I would suggest neither. Although Korean, if possible try to find something called Haidong Gumdo. It is a battle-field version of Korean combat. I found it combines Kendo and Iaido while including multiple oppenents. "If you can take on a thousand how difficult is one" ALthough I will agree that Japan and Korean or extremely diffrent I believe that since Korean acted as a cultural bridge the three martial arts are very similar. In fact the sword used in both martial arts are made and look exactly the same just with diffrent names. Here are some pictures: www.arscives.com/bladesign/images/2.%20full-sword-set-2.jpgCalled a "Jin-gum" www.swordsoftheeast.com/ProductImages/musashi/japanese-swords-samurai-swords-musashi-maou-kaze-katana.jpgJapanese Katana Haidong Gumdo is actually a National Federation so it shouldn't be hard to find in any area.
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Post by Please Delete on Apr 8, 2010 5:13:30 GMT -5
Be aware that the Kumdo sword kata are reconstructed from 17th century works with a lot of Japanese kendo frog-dna ("kumdo" is the Korean pronunciation of "kendo"). It is extremely active, but that's the reason that the swords look similar (if you look in the Muye Dobo Tongi, they even talk about the lineage of the sword coming from Japan).
It is understandable that the Koreans have been trying to rebuild their martial traditions since WWII, but it should be understood where things are coming from. That said, kumdo exercises tend to be much more active and aerobic than any kendo dojo I've been in, but neither is necessarily better in teaching someone how to fight.
-Ii
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Post by honagakenshin on Apr 8, 2010 23:24:03 GMT -5
I am talking about Haidong Gumdo not Haedong Kumdo. Kumdo is extremely like kendo while Gumdo is more battefield. However, I do agree with you that Kumdo came from Kendo (they pratically use the same equipment for everything). There is a lot of contreversy on the subject of both martial arts. Korean says they started it, Japan says the same thing. I would like to point out that I have only been doing Gumdo for six months and thus far every duel I have fought I have either won or tied. I am simply pointing out that I have experience amazing results in my fighting. However everyone is diffrent and something that works for me might not work for you
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Post by Yamamoto Morikazu on Apr 9, 2010 9:39:48 GMT -5
Having been in various martial arts for 30 years now. I can tell you that only a couple have helped me in heavy combat for SCA when it comes to actual techniques that translate.
having said that. let me tell you what helped the most from each martial art.
Tae Kwon Do. the constant sparring and fighting for tournaments gave me the mind set to fight and not be afraid. The training discipline helped me learn a lot of stances. Three moves in particular helpd me with single handed sword. Essentially it was the same hand technique with a sword in it.
Kumdo. the single best martial art that can translate to heavy combat. It helped my endurance, It helped me foot work. It helped my breathing. It helped my guards for two handed swords. It helped my training regiment. A lot of things have come back to me in the last 6 months and my training partners (fighters) are noticing.
Aikido. The helped a great deal for close quarters. The especially rings true when I have someone grab my sword.
there are much more. but i need coffe. so I will end here.
the advice I have. is take what ever art you want. then figure out what works in heavy combat and keep it. dont try and make heavy combat suite your martial art. two different thigns.
the beautiful thing is when you realize that what you just did to kill your opponent was something you learned in another art. and it worked.
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Post by honagakenshin on Apr 9, 2010 15:31:04 GMT -5
I agree. Perhaps it didn't come across this way but this is what i meant. It also helps that Sensei Yoho allows me to train in armor. Anyway there is my two bits. Thank you for allowing me to participate in this conversation. I hope that it has enlightened you as much as it has me Honaga Kenshin P.S sorry for taking over your topic jehimuzu.
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hiro
New Member
Posts: 49
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Post by hiro on Apr 19, 2010 20:04:22 GMT -5
A reputable Kendo school will help you fight in the SCA. Sword movenment, targeting, placement are great for any two handed weapon applications. You'll just have to get over targeting hands!
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Post by Uryuu Ujishige on Sept 26, 2011 22:07:21 GMT -5
Hey ya'll. I have been doing SCA kenjutsu for about 36 years. As stated in previous posts, there are various aspects of the different martial arts that can be applied to SCA combat. In regards to SCA kenjutsu, my personal martial experience outside of the SCA is mostly through aikido. From aikido I have been able to apply methods of movement, determining and reacting to range, close quarter maneuvering, breathing control, and enhancement of Ki, as well as other aspects. A word on Kendo and Kenjutsu (outside the SCA). Both are true martial arts in their own right and have value within their circles, but, in my opinion, contribute minimally to the SCA combat experience. Kendo: You can learn the very basics of perception of attack, timing, range, and some movement. Kendo is very restrictive in its methods of attack and target areas. It uses a slap style of strike instead of a full forceful cut, and more of a stagger-step style of movement instead of a yin-yang style. Kendo also advocates the "offense-is-defense" style of combat, which is admittedly the pinnacle of technique and form, but is not practical for a truer combat style, like that practiced in the SCA. So, there is not an emphasis on the practical defensive techniques necessary in SCA combat. Kenjutsu: While I have no practical experience with kenjutsu I have observed it for years and have communicated with many kenjutsuka. Kenjutsu is a very technical and beautiful martial art. It is based purely on kata, and when done by the most experienced and skilled practitioners can appear as free form combat, but it is not. Kenjutsuka, as a rule, do not spar, or practice anything close to combat. All movement and timing is predetermined, and the katas (forms) are strictly adhered to. There are several things of value that can be learned and applied to combat, but have to be developed separately in the combat environment, as their application is completely different. Aspects such as correctly holding the sword, proper cutting techniques, basic movement, and self discipline.
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