Name help, again

[Yasaki Tadahira]

I am Katchushi Yasaki.

I would like to document this.

From my understanding unless i strike it rich and buy the documentation library i wont find the resources to document Katchushi as a last name.

I took a weekend from fighting at our last crown list and got to look partially (i only had a few hours) look through Solveig-Sensi's amazing book. I found Tatsukawa, my new surname.

I am not willing to give up Yasaki, however prior to getting my hands on the book i found information on a castle in period. (as referenced in my last post.) However upon talking to my local herald i was told i have to show that it could be used as a name.

Can anyone check for Yasaki as a name, or have a way to use the castle name in documentation?

I am sorry to bother you guys again, but every time i get so far i find new things in the way.

Thank you.
Tatsukawa Yasaki

[Saionji Shonagon]

Nov 22, 2009 23:07:42 GMT -5 Yasaki Tadahira said:

Can anyone check for Yasaki as a name, or have a way to use the castle name in documentation?

1. It's not in Name Construction in Medieval Japan as far as I can tell from a stroll through the index.

2. There are such things as names based on locations, however, they are, as far as I know, used in surnames, for example, Musashi (as in the province) Miyamoto. Or Saionji (as in the temple founded by her forbears).

3. "Ya" and "Saki" are listed as name elements, however, to make a long story short after looking up the various readings that match the Western phonetic spellings, both tend to be used as surname elements or in a couple cases "Ya" appears in women's names.

Hopefully, some of our more expert name mavens can elaborate and/or correct me if I have missed something, but it doesn't look good.

That said, you could always register something that can be documented and use "Yasaki" as an unregistered nickname.
(As with the really bad pun I use as mine.)

[AJBryant]

Well, "katchûshi" is a title or job description, not a name. Likewise, there is a problem with Yasaki. That could work as a locative surname (and, in fact, it is a surname).

I'm afraid you have to go back to the drawing board.

You could start with Yasaki as the surname, but you still need the rest of the name.

[inume]

If Yasaki is the most important element to you, I'd suggest taking Effingham-dono's advice and using that element as your surname since that is what people will call you (using proper Japanese etiquette).

As for a given (first) name, check out Solvieg-hime's article on Masculine Given names at St. Gabriel's Academy - www.s-gabriel.org/names/solveig/nanori/

I see that there is a name that sounds similar to Katchushi and might work for you: Katsuhisa. Good luck!

[Yasaki Tadahira]

I will not give up.

two modern references i think.

Director Yasaki Shigeaki
www.awimach.com/english/corporate/history.html

Professor Yasaki Wataru (Tokyo University of Science)
www-personal.edfac.usyd.edu.au/staff/lightr/Dr._Richard_Light/CV.html

[Saionji Shonagon]

Nov 23, 2009 16:30:24 GMT -5 Yasaki Tadahira said:

two modern references i think.

I'm afraid this isn't going to help you. That's like trying to prove the name Smith is period by pointing to Will Smith and Emmett Smith.

Ideally, you want to try to find a source from or about our period in which there is someone using Yasaki as a surname, which could require some digging. Failing that, you may be able to plead your case with proof that Yasaki existed as a place during period and can therefore be used as a locative surname. (I did this with my European persona name, because there are three different municipalities in modern England using the name "Woodford," but one of them is mentioned in the Domesday Book.)

Good hunting!

[Yamanouchi Eidou]

Also, in both of your examples Yasaki is a surname.

[solveig]

Noble Cousin!

Greetings from Solveig! The problem with just lifting modern names is that for a lot of the medieval and early modern period most Japanese did not have surnames. Everyone adopted surnames after the Meiji Restoration in the nineteenth century. This doesn't mean that a particular name is doomed, but it does mean that you will have to figure out how to write it in Japanese (meaning Kanji) and then use that as a basis for demonstrating that it would be a reasonable name for a pre-seventeenth century Japanese. Of course, if you can find someone who used that name prior to 1601, then you are home free.

There is a 矢先稲荷神社 Yasaki Inari Jinja daing from 1642 which is a bit too recent:
www.asakusa7.jp/yasaki.html
Now, I haven't dated the name of the shrine to prior to 1601 nor have I justified using it as a family name, but the name does exist in Japan.

There is also 矢崎 Yazaki which has a typical toponymic construction: <descriptor><land feature>. Here we have an arrow shaped cape. While Yazaki is probably the preferred reading, it can also be read as Yasaki. So, why not go for using Yasaki or Yazaki as a constructed surname? I can not guarantee that it will make it through the College of Arms. Only finding an example of a real life human being prior to 1601 can have that sort of strength to it. However, the 矢崎 is a pretty reasonable toponymic family name. Note. 矢崎 is a real-life modern Japanese surname.

So, how about something along the lines of Yazaki Gentarou Yoshimitsu or something like that?

[Yasaki Tadahira]

I am going to have to pay someone to do the reasearch. I think only someone who speaks Japanese can find the name written in Japanese in a historic document.

I want Yasaki to be a given name, not a surname.

Ill have to find something to sell, cause i still don't have a job (since march) and not spending bill money, but to spend it at all should show how important it is to me. As a shy person i have few strong friends, so when knights and squires i respect but hardly know remember my name it does me honor.

I would rather not change it.

Surname maters little, but i am Yasaki.

[Yamanouchi Eidou]

But once again, within the purview of Japanese culture what people will generally call you is your surname.

For example, most people should refer to me as Yamanouchi-dono.

In fact, my total real and actual last name is Aedo. When I was in Japan, everybody called me Aedo-choro (elder).

It would be similar to the western concepts of nomenclature wherein you might refer to a hypothetical Lord Humphrey Roberts as 'Lord Roberts'.

Now, the real key here is that you have a couple of options. The one is to register whatever special and viable name for the College of Arms and just use Yasaki as a nickname. No one will think twice and it will be perfectly fine.

The second is to register Yasaki as a surname and just let everybody use it without telling them that it is, in fact, the surname. Just let everybody assume that it is your first name and politely don't correct them on it. It will be fine.

I think it's important to remember that when trying to recreate history, you first look at how things were done back in the day and then try to conform to those patterns. It is infinitely more difficult to come up with an idea and then try to scrounge history to justify it.

Right now it sounds like the experts are saying that Yasaki as a given name is going to be generally unfeasible as a truly historical name. You may find it but it will be well hidden if you do.

[AJBryant]

Nov 23, 2009 16:30:24 GMT -5 Yasaki Tadahira said:

I will not give up.

two modern references i think.

Director Yasaki Shigeaki
www.awimach.com/english/corporate/history.html

Professor Yasaki Wataru (Tokyo University of Science)
www-personal.edfac.usyd.edu.au/staff/lightr/Dr._Richard_Light/CV.html

Don't take this the wrong way, but.... Duh.

As I said, Yasaki is a surname. Both of those guys are surnamed Yasaki.

What is your point?

[inume]

Exactly... when you see Japanese names listed properly, they are last name first. I've heard this has to do with the fact that what family you belong to is more important then your individual self - it's a cultural difference. So most friends and in some time periods even your wife would call you buy your last name. That is why Makiwara-hime, Effingham-dono, Yamanouchi-dono, Solveig-hime and myself have continually suggested that you take Yasaki as a surname and introduce yourself as such to people. We are aware that you want to use it as a given name, but what we are trying to instill is that in Japanese culture, surnames are the most important part and is what you are going to be referred to as 99% of the time by your friends and family.

Again, as a non-practicing herald, I'd suggest registering Yasaki as your surname and picking something you are OK with for your given name, but your given name is not as important as your surname. And, as a herald with an interest in Japanese culture, I would further suggest that you just fill it out as you normally would with Yasaki first and your given name second. Most heralds will not understand the difference.

Your other option is to tick the box saying that you are not requesting authenticity. However, you have a perfectly workable situation that I believe you should take advantage of.

[solveig]

Noble Cousin!

Greetings from Solveig! About the only thing that you will be called more frequently than your family name, at least if you are male, is some title or job name or other. For example, there are people who I would only EVER call sensei. Some of them I know only their family name. Others I know both family name and given name. But, it would be weird to call them something other than sensei. Anyway, as others have already pointed out, if you want people calling you Yazaki, then you should really make that your family name. For example, my boss's family name was Magara. Sometimes he would be referred to as Magara bucho. He could also be referred to simply as bucho. I urge you to watch the movie Ran and listen to the Japanese sound track. You will notice that the elderly lord is frequently referred to simply as "tono" (lord).

In case you are curious, bucho means department head. Magara bucho was the head of the engineering department.

Finally, I believe that the name order thing is primarily linguistic. It is shared by quite a few cultures in the Ural-Altaic language group including the Hungarians. Japanese is a strictly verb-final language and adjectives, of all stripes, always precede that which is being modified.

[inume]

I stand corrected on the reasons for surname supremacy, Solveig-sensei. ;D