Panels?

[yumehime]

Ok, so I started on Japanese costuming by looking at anime and thinking "Wow, Sailor Mars has really comfy looking clothing for yard work..." and most of my early modern traditional attempts failed before I found a kimono import and found out how relevant the panel size was to the whole pattern of a garment.

Now that I'm trying to make period Japanese costuming, I'm finding a lot of directions that assume I'm running to Jo-Ann's or carving up old bed sheets, and loads of calculations for if I'm much larger then a period body, but since I'm only 5 foot, I though trying to make a period sized panel would be a good start. Unfortunately I'm getting a range from 12 inches to 20 inches for a period panel.

So what is a period panel? 'Cause if it is 20 inches, I actually found curtains that are a perfect period width and will turn into 8 panel hakama with a slice in the middle and some pleats (they even look like silk:). Or should I be working from a smaller base panel size for truly authentic pre-modern priestess pants? The hakama is pleated so all I have to do to change the fit when I have a panel detention is change the pleat depth or count, but what do I start with?

[Saionji Shonagon]

Aug 30, 2010 0:53:40 GMT -5 yumehime said:

Now that I'm trying to make period Japanese costuming, I'm finding a lot of directions that assume I'm running to Jo-Ann's or carving up old bed sheets, and loads of calculations for if I'm much larger then a period body, but since I'm only 5 foot, I though trying to make a period sized panel would be a good start.

Go to www.wodefordhall.com/kosode.htm for how to determine the scale of kosode panels that will fit you.

For hakama, the period panel width would likewise be in the neighborhood of 16 inches. Again, if you're small, you may want to scale down.

You might want to pick up some cheap muslin and make a mock-up just to see what works for you.

[Noriko]

This site might help:

www.reconstructinghistory.com/japanese/EKCourt/heianwomen.html

The measurements seem to gel with the measurements of the things in my garb closet and I'm 5'2". However, this website is pretty concrete in regards to panel width- a lot of the other sites have taken into account that contemporary folks run a wider gamut of sizes.

[yumehime]

Thanks for replies.

So 16-18.5 inches is about the period panel? It hardly seems worth cutting into the fabric for the 1.5 inch I'm over when I can just stitch deeper and keep the machined french seam as is.

Makiwara, why would I want to scale down the period panel if I'm making a period garment? Wouldn't the period method be much like the modern Japanese traditional method of leaving the salvage alone and moving the seam rather then cutting into the width of the fabric? I thought if I wanted smaller pleated clothing I just made deeper pleats and if I wanted a smaller kosode I just made bigger seam allowances in a panel, much like a modern kimono would be fitted.

Noriko, the site is helpful for seeing panel size and in part for construction, but I think it may be just a bit early for my target period of period. Still, the balloon like affect that having the hem of the pants pulled under creates is kind of cool and not information I had seen on heian era clothing. Most online sources claim the red pants are made just like modern hakama or that women NEVER divided their hakama.

[Saionji Shonagon]

Aug 30, 2010 1:49:18 GMT -5 yumehime said:

Makiwara, why would I want to scale down the period panel if I'm making a period garment?

So that it fits you.

You can achieve that by taking a larger seam allowance, which is what they did. If you are using fabric that's not off a kimono bolt, you might also consider cutting to the necessary width as you're not going to have as many selvages to work with.

[Noriko]

Aug 30, 2010 1:49:18 GMT -5 yumehime said:

Thanks for replies.
Most online sources claim the red pants are made just like modern hakama or that women NEVER divided their hakama.

If you're going for a shrine maiden costume, as I understand it, then you'd want to make the pants ankle length.

[yumehime]

Makiwara, I was under the impression that historical clothing, like modern traditional depended far more on the tailoring for fit then then starting size of the panel. I was also under the impression that the objective of this site was to help users make clothing with the most accurate techniques possible. I am also fairly certain that if I haven't had any experience with fitting a period panel size down to me, that it is a bad time to start investing in imported silk. Then again, perhaps I'm being silly and should ignore the time I spent learning how to use the traditional hand stitching methods and slap the whole thing together with a sewing machine. I wish I had known that before I wore my finger sore with a needle and thread, but at least I can do discreet clothing repair on the fly now.

Noriko, I'm not sure if shrine maiden is the right term. I had thought I had seen a painting of a noble woman who had fallen from power depicted in the white top and red pants from around 1200 that I recognized from anime. In anime the American translators call them preistesses, but the painting had a Japanese name I can't remember and I lost the image in a computer mishap, but I though that the new noble woman also wore the white and red but reduced the 12 layer to 2 over the top. Have I gotten bad net info again? Are the hakama actualy ballooned under past Heian era?

[Noriko]

yumehime said:

Noriko, I'm not sure if shrine maiden is the right term. I had thought I had seen a painting of a noble woman who had fallen from power depicted in the white top and red pants from around 1200 that I recognized from anime. In anime the American translators call them preistesses, but the painting had a Japanese name I can't remember and I lost the image in a computer mishap, but I though that the new noble woman also wore the white and red but reduced the 12 layer to 2 over the top. Have I gotten bad net info again? Are the hakama actualy ballooned under past Heian era?

You're on the right track here. Basically, it's not that the woman was wearing that outfit because she "fell from power" but because during the medieval period (Kamakura etc.), the seat of power became the samurai and the military and with it, a lean towards austerity and spartan dress. The emperor and his court was still around and they still dressed in the multi-layer styles, but they were figure-heads. Basically, you need to figure out then, if your costume is for a samurai/military lady or for a court lady.
As for the hakama, yes, these still would have ballooned under or been worn long past the foot. These are nakabakama. I misunderstood what type of character you were planning to dress as.
In regards to technique, people have different needs- a kosode constructed as is may not fit some women. The average Heian woman was probably a size 0 or 2- the average SCAdian not so much. No one is going to be waking around at an event with a ruler and if they are, you know where you can tell them where they can put it (;

[laurentk]

To build on what Noriko said, "average" in mideaval Japan is not anywhere near present day "average."

It is my understanding the cloth panels were, essentially, the width of the loom, and loom widths were fairly similar (I do not wish to use the word "standard" here.

Thus, clothes made from these uniform-ish width fabric will fit most persons the same without much thought to taloring. To simulate how these clothes fit persons of non-standard body size, a set of formulas were developed to create non-standard panel widths.

I put these calculations in a spreadsheet to make it easier on me.

I need to experiment with my next kosode, but I suspect the Japanese didn't use measuring devices in clothes construction. Since most the panel widths are full widths or half widths, and lengths could be figured out by placing the fabric next to the body, I think most of these garments could be made without--if the full panel width was pre-fabricated--a measuring tape.

[Saionji Shonagon]

Aug 30, 2010 14:34:48 GMT -5 laurentk said:

It is my understanding the cloth panels were, essentially, the width of the loom, and loom widths were fairly similar (I do not wish to use the word "standard" here.

If there was a "standard" it would be the width the average weaver can reach while working a backstrap loom.

I need to look and see if I can remember which of my books it was in, but the Shoso-in repository has a small device that is extremely similar to the chalk snap-lines used nowadays by carpenters, painters and so forth, to mark a straight line from point A to point B. The size seemed to indicate that it was used to mark straight lines on fabric.

[Saionji Shonagon]

Aug 30, 2010 9:45:25 GMT -5 Noriko said:

If you're going for a shrine maiden costume, as I understand it, then you'd want to make the pants ankle length.

That's a relatively modern development.

Miko were women of rank. In fact the high priestess of the Ise shrine had to be a member of the Imperial family.
They wore what women of rank wore during the Heian period, namely, nagabakama: trailing indoors, tied up out.

But what do I know?

[Noriko]

Ah, my bad- I meant the modern miko that one sees in anime since I assumed that was what Yumehime was talking about since she mentioned Sailor Mars- I'm sure period miko wore period pants (;

[laurentk]

Aug 30, 2010 17:04:20 GMT -5 Saionji Shonagon said:

If there was a "standard" it would be the width the average weaver can reach while working a backstrap loom.

Ha, ha! So it is a self referential item. The average size weaver of the time is going to produce a bolt of cloth, that is going to be is going to become the average panel width, which produces average sized clothing.

Aug 30, 2010 17:04:20 GMT -5 Saionji Shonagon said:

the Shoso-in repository has a small device that is extremely similar to the chalk snap-lines

If you can find out the name (no rush), that would be awesome! I may rummage call my dad, and ask if I can rummage through his tools to find his chalk line.

[Saionji Shonagon]

Aug 30, 2010 19:51:41 GMT -5 laurentk said:

If you can find out the name (no rush), that would be awesome! I may rummage call my dad, and ask if I can rummage through his tools to find his chalk line.

Crap, it was not in the book I thought it was. This may require further searching later on. The Shoso-in example used ink instead of chalk, IIRC.

[yumehime]

Noriko, while I have thought of cos-playing the “shrine maiden” as seen in many anime, I had thought it may be more useful to my purposes if it was also clothing useful to historical recreation, but I seem to have been misinformed on what was actually being worn in period as well as why. I have also had quite a difficult time finding quality information on what the samurai wife would have worn in comparison to the court ladies of the Prince Genji stories, though I had thought they would have preferred a style that was a bit easier to travel in. I'm starting to think if I want a pair of hakama, that instead of making them from the red curtains, I should just use the blue cotton that wasn't quite right for the sleeves I had intended to line with it and make balloony nakabakama from the red.

As to size, though I am about a size 3-4, witch I think is well within period range for clothing that ties shut, I found that the 14 inch wide panel I was told to use for a modern kimono was plenty big enough to dress my sister in correctly, and at 5'2 and nearly 300 pounds, that leaves quite a lot of wiggle room when working with the current panel size, witch I had been told is rather small for the average American. Though I could see there being some difficulty on the larger body end for period construction methods, I think the amount of fitting done in the actual tailoring is being underestimated. I was also hoping that due to the historical parade in Japan as well as the fact that kimono are made for children as well as the fact that kimono are still using hand stitched assembly centuries later, that eventually I can get my hands on fully period fabric made in Japan, though I fear the price tag.

And while on the topic of pants, did non samurai actually use hakama in period, or is this more bad net info?