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Post by Please Delete on Mar 1, 2011 3:17:29 GMT -5
So I'm using the title from one of my favorite articles on the subject, but this is meant as a continuation from the " Question about menpo" thread. Hiro posed the question as to what techniques work well against a person using a shield (assuming you have no shield of your own). That seemed like it could take its own thread. And it's an honest question. Who regularly beats shields with a great weapon in tourney's? I would like to know their techniques. Heck I'll share one tip. When fighting with two swords, I usually just threaten with my off hand and use it to control their weapon. It can be pretty effective. I can't say that I am considered all that dangerous, but I've found several things that seem to work. 1) I notice that a lot of people pay attention to where my sword is rather than my body, especially in hasso. This can get them to move their shield to block where they think the sword will come in, providing an opening elsewhere. 2) Most people raise their shield to block high. If you throw a high shot but step to the side and pull it back before it hits their shield it can position you for a thrust straight into the body. 3) In Avalon, Noe-dono's students had a useful spear thrust technique. He would drop the spear tip so that it dropped below your line of sight in one direction, then pop it up the other way with a "C" motion right into the face of the person with the shield. This seems to work because the brain continues to plot the trajectory of the spear in the direction it was last traveling, and a change in both direction and speed isn't noticed until too late. 4) Not a particularly "Japanese" technique, but zwerchau can get right between the shield and sword, especially if you drop the tip. What techniques to others find useful? What practices do you do? -Ii |
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Post by Suzuki Ken'ichi on Mar 1, 2011 3:55:25 GMT -5
Well, let me repeat what I said in the other thread:
I fight Florentine a fair amount. I won't say I'm great at it, but I'm improving. One thing I have found is that when fighting nito against sword-and-board is that you can never stop moving... and that especially applies to the swords. When one sword is moving, the other should be as well, and so should your body....
One drill that I run a lot is the 'clock' drill. In standard single-sword practice, this drill is simple... you designate points on the pell as one through six, (one and six are opposite sides of the head; two and five opposite sides at about chest level, and three and four are thigh level) and simply work through striking each point. That's followed by striking two points in sequence, and so on.
In Ni-to practice, you can practice striking two points simultaneously... I find the one / four and three / six very effective, but practice all the combinations. Also, don't stand like a lump in front of the pell... practice striking and moving around it. It's surprising how often that trailing hand finds a useful target.
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Post by Kano Hiroyoshi on Mar 1, 2011 10:02:59 GMT -5
I fight two-sword as much because I don't like hiding behind a shield as because of persona reasons.
Even though I'm right-handed, one thing that I do is pretend to be left-handed. I tend to take a stance with my right foot forward and left shoulder back, left sword "cocked and loaded." I put my right sword out in front for defense. This takes a right-handed shield-man (who is usually not used to fighting a left-handed opponent) out of his comfort zone. It also gives me a stronger offense with my left hand to make up for the lesser strength and skill compared to my right. I can still attack just fine with my right even when it is out in front of me in "defense mode."
Now that being said, I don't use that stance all the time. I switch "handed-ness" frequently and try to keep moving so my opponent doesn't have time to plan and act but rather has to react to what I'm doing. Also, one thing I learned from Duke Michael O'Brien is to not set up in your combat stance when you're outside of engagement range, but rather go into your stance as you move into range. This prevents your opponent from studying you to look for openings.
I also second what Bjorn said about in your pell-work trying to attack multiple targets simultaneously and moving during your pell-work instead of standing still. The skills you practice in training are the skills you use in combat.
Even though I've been training mostly in Florentine, I have been wanting to try hand-and-a-half against shield-using opponents. A friend of mine (who actually has a viking persona) trained in classical Kenjutsu for many years and he fights with a hand-and-a-half and is very effective against shield-men. The extra reach, even if it's only six inches, actually makes a big difference and the extra leverage can counter the advantage of the shield. I'd like to try it myself, again as much because I enjoy it as because of persona reasons.
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Post by arashi on Mar 1, 2011 11:58:03 GMT -5
When I first started fighting polearm, my natural instinct was to hold the weapon with my dominant right hand forward. One tip I got from one of the top polearm fighters in the region was to switch and put my left hand forward against a right handed shield user. It makes it alot more difficult for them to block incoming attacks with the shield, while not changing your level of defense much. (I also find it alot easier to get good power with butt spike attacks when my right hand is at the butt spike end)
In regards to the first part of the question in the menpo thread... I don't know all the statistics about how many people have won crowns in what kingdoms using other than sword and shield...but I know a number of fantastic fighters who fight primarily in styles other than sword and board, and can pick apart most shield fighters. I think one of the main reasons that most crowns are won by sword and shield users, are most fighters are sword and shield fighters. At Candlemas last week, out of all the fighters there, I think I saw like 3 polearm fighters, one 2 sword fighter, and about 100 sword and board fighters...so statistically you will end up with more winners just because they outnumber other styles by more than 10 to 1.
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Post by Kôriki Ryuushirô Hiroshige on Mar 1, 2011 12:39:44 GMT -5
In the Midrealm (last couple of Crown's I've seen) the finals have been best of 3, sword & shield, Great sword, 6ft spear
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Post by Kano Hiroyoshi on Mar 1, 2011 13:00:18 GMT -5
In regards to the first part of the question in the menpo thread... I don't know all the statistics about how many people have won crowns in what kingdoms using other than sword and shield...but I know a number of fantastic fighters who fight primarily in styles other than sword and board, and can pick apart most shield fighters. I think one of the main reasons that most crowns are won by sword and shield users, are most fighters are sword and shield fighters. At Candlemas last week, out of all the fighters there, I think I saw like 3 polearm fighters, one 2 sword fighter, and about 100 sword and board fighters...so statistically you will end up with more winners just because they outnumber other styles by more than 10 to 1. This trend is changing. In our Kingdom, at least, some of the top fighters are using things other than sword and shield. Of the four "Uber-dukes" who still compete, two use a shield, one uses a madu, and one fights two sword (mostly). Of the other counts and dukes, I would guess about two-thirds use a shield, the rest using two-sword or madu. In the Midrealm (last couple of Crown's I've seen) the finals have been best of 3, sword & shield, Great sword, 6ft spear We have also started trending toward this. |
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Post by Suzuki Ken'ichi on Mar 1, 2011 14:23:52 GMT -5
I heard a lot of grumbling about someone using a madu in our last crown tourney... or maybe the one before that. The last one I attended, anyway.
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Post by pallidus on Mar 1, 2011 15:10:24 GMT -5
This guy is winning all kinds of tournaments here in the West. www.scabastardsword.com/You can youtube him - Marc de Arundel and see him move. Last year at the West/Antir War he was the last Westerner left alive in one battle. He then defeated 11 champions sent against him in single combat until he finally fell from exhaustion. He's been prince 3 times, and Im sure he will win a crown soon. One thing that the website doesn't mention is that he works out constantly, has great cardiovascular prowess, and is extremely light on his feet. |
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hiro
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Post by hiro on Mar 1, 2011 18:28:50 GMT -5
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hiro
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Post by hiro on Mar 1, 2011 18:37:07 GMT -5
...and Thanks to Katsumori dono for moving this topic to it's proper location!
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Post by Please Delete on Mar 1, 2011 20:35:35 GMT -5
One thing that the website doesn't mention is that he works out constantly, has great cardiovascular prowess, and is extremely light on his feet. One of the first polearm instructors mentioned this to me: That he still (and he had been doing this for some time by then PLUS a stint in the Army) did a seeminly inordinate number of push-ups, sit-ups, etc. every day. This is something we should all push ourselves towards. If we can get fit and trim while fighting, that's a good thing, no? |
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Post by pallidus on Mar 1, 2011 21:13:56 GMT -5
Duke Palymar has an awesome polearm video here: medievalfighting.com/Plus its only $15. His polearm positioning and sliding grip change looks like its straight out of bojutusu ryu-ha, and it is super effective in combat. He also has some viewpoints that have been verified by the Society Earl Marshall about grappling- basically that you cannot strike your opponent with the haft of your weapon, BUT after "incidental contact" is made you can use the haft to do many things. This includes pushing, pulling, steering, and almost anything short of a joint lock or a throw. This makes the polearm very effective at short range. Possibly the most effective short range weapon in the SCA system. |
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Post by Please Delete on Mar 2, 2011 0:23:56 GMT -5
I completely agree with the polearm being a great "in close" weapon. Lots of leverage, and two heads (people often forget about the ishizuki (butt spike) when they are being threatened by the head.
As for using the haft to manuever an opponent--while I think it should be completely legal, check with your local and kingdom marshallate, as local kingdom rules may be more strict.
Still, polearm is my favorite weapon. I find it the easiest to be mobile, generate plenty of force, have both reach and close-in abilities, and just all around fun!
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Lash
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perfection isnt an end result but a path to walk upon with your eyes closed.
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Post by Lash on Mar 2, 2011 19:26:36 GMT -5
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Mar 2, 2011 20:33:36 GMT -5
Seeing as I'm "on loan" to these nice folks, I'm throwing in Takeshi no Miya's finals in Coronet: www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFYDmBsqExU(Watch it to the end, you'll see why I like serving on this court.) (BTW, I am informed he's building new armor!) |
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And it's an honest question. Who regularly beats shields with a great weapon in tourney's? I would like to know their techniques.
