Iori
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Post by Iori on Apr 14, 2011 16:44:37 GMT -5
I'm curious if anyone has seen an elongated basket hilt for two handed weapons, the kind made out of round bar stock that you typically see on SCA one-handers? An idea I had to avoid wearing full gauntlets when fighting with a katana was to create a basket weave that extends from the tsuba to the kashira, leaving the fingers free for better grip on the tsuka. When last I fought in the SCA, I much preferred this setup with my one-handed weapons. Naturally, half gauntlets and wrist protection would still be necessary. Do you guys think this is possible, legal, functionally justifiable? I wonder if this could be designed with sufficient protection without inhibiting movement and defense with the weapon. Nor throwing the balance too far off. What kinds of hand protection are you using? Any complaints or issues? Iori
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yoshimitsu
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Live long enuf to win the fight
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Post by yoshimitsu on Apr 14, 2011 18:51:18 GMT -5
When I was living in Atlantia I knew a knight that had a baskethilt for his bastard sword. It was just like a typical basket hilt just very elongated. As for the rules go there is no rule to prevent this so long as you maintain the proper coverage of fingers and wrist.
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Post by arashi on Apr 14, 2011 22:28:13 GMT -5
I would think a basket hilt designed to 2 hands would cause a few problems. First the weight would be twice as much as a normal basket hilt, second the mechanics of fighting with a 2 handed weapon require you to twist your hands around the grip more than on a single handed sword during alot of moves.
It could be done, but I have a feeling there is a reason you don't see them around.
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Post by Kano Hiroyoshi on Apr 15, 2011 15:21:10 GMT -5
What kinds of hand protection are you using? Any complaints or issues? Iori Currently using hockey gloves. I originally used mitten gauntlets but hated them because I didn't have enough finger mobility to manipulate the sword how I wanted. I don't have the money to purchase quality finger gauntlets or the metal-working skills to make them myself. So I purchased some inexpensive hockey gloves, planning to disguise them so they didn't look so glaring. Hockey gloves by themselves are supposed to be legal, but I find my fingers still get smashed up pretty badly. I have the finger mobility that I want, but not enough protection. I'm going to cover the fingers in stiff plastic, and that should help with the protection as well as with disguising them. The way I move my hands and arms when using a katana, an elongated basket hilt would definitely get in the way. I'm no kendo student, but from what little I have seen and learned I would say a basket hilt might not get in the way of most traditional kendo moves. However, my friend who has studied historic kenjustu for many years says that most traditional kendo moves don't translate well to the SCA. You have to manipulate the sword more, meaning the basket hilt probably would foul things up. -Hiro
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Iori
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Post by Iori on Apr 16, 2011 6:37:57 GMT -5
I suppose the only way to find out is experiment.
My first pair of gauntlets were mitten stainless steel. They functioned decently but were too painful to use without adding a layer of foam on the inside. This solved the pain problem but made them feel too rigid to grab the sword tightly.
I made a second pair of steel mitten gauntlets with better articulation, but kept having the deer hide strips that secured the hands rip out of the rivets. Both models I felt were too heavy and cumbersome to use effectively.
Maybe I should try something simpler, like your leather reinforced hockey gloves Hiro or perhaps something made out of ABS. I wonder how some Kendo kote would do with strips of hardened leather attached to the exterior? I have an extra pair that could be retired for that purpose.
I think I'm going to try and make the basket hilt and see how it comes out. Am wondering if Titanium bar stock is available and not prohibitively expensive to cut down on the weight.
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Post by mrcunningham on Apr 17, 2011 18:33:30 GMT -5
I made a second pair of steel mitten gauntlets with better articulation, but kept having the deer hide strips that secured the hands rip out of the rivets. Both models I felt were too heavy and cumbersome to use effectively. The problem is almost certainly not the weight. You can grow stronger. Better articulation does probably mean buying more expensive gauntlets, though. But are your hands worth it? I would guess "yes". Take a look at Windrose Armories and shop around at Pennsic when the time comes. The Armour Archive also often has folks willing to drop good stuff for cheap.
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Iori
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Post by Iori on Apr 17, 2011 19:37:19 GMT -5
You're probably right. Good equipment is everything. I'll definitely keep my eye out for a pair that make my hands happy.
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Post by Please Delete on Apr 17, 2011 20:54:51 GMT -5
Gauntlets have always been a problem for me. They seem to constantly take a beating, and I constantly have to repair them. Hockey gloves eventually have the cloth rip out, which is its own kind of problem. I'm half tempted to look at kydex or other plastic gauntlets to see if the deformation problems aren't as bad, but I wonder about rigidity and what I'll need to do to fix them whenever they do break. Of course, part of this is just not getting my hands smacked quite so much.
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Iori
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Post by Iori on Apr 18, 2011 5:40:04 GMT -5
Really makes you wonder how the ancients avoided hand mutilation in the Middle Ages. Perhaps this is why the two sword style was never popular. Too easy to destroy your offense without basket hilts and with your hands all out in the open.
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Post by konrad on Apr 18, 2011 13:20:21 GMT -5
Really makes you wonder how the ancients avoided hand mutilation in the Middle Ages. Perhaps this is why the two sword style was never popular. Too easy to destroy your offense without basket hilts and with your hands all out in the open. It's because they didn't fight like we do in the SCA. We rely on the fact that hands are invulnerable and our fighting styles tend to reflect this mindset. People fought with thousands of years without basket hilts or fully articulated gauntlets and managed to get by with their digits relatively intact.
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Apr 18, 2011 17:09:47 GMT -5
People fought with thousands of years without basket hilts or fully articulated gauntlets and managed to get by with their digits relatively intact. Or not. No one ever dies or loses a limb for real in this game we play. Some of our historical forebears were not so fortunate.
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Post by konrad on Apr 18, 2011 18:23:29 GMT -5
People fought with thousands of years without basket hilts or fully articulated gauntlets and managed to get by with their digits relatively intact. Or not. No one ever dies or loses a limb for real in this game we play. Some of our historical forebears were not so fortunate. That's why I used the term 'relatively', afterall, you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs. Hand protection is an interesting historical concept because for the most part (excepting perhaps the last 300 odd years of the SCA's European period of focus) hand defences are there to protect mainly against some form of incidental contact. Few period hand defences could take a direct blow and provide 100% protection which is really what we try to achieve in our SCA fighting. If the armour of the time wasn't designed to proect against direct targeting then they must have used something else to keep their hands safe, namely, good technique. Unfortuantely, in the name of safety, we tend to complicate the situation which in turn leads us farther away from 'How They Really Did It'.
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hiro
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Post by hiro on Apr 18, 2011 23:48:41 GMT -5
I think sometimes we forget that we fight more than they did in armor. Their armor didn't have to protect them as often. Yes the difference is when they did fight, it really counted, but they probably didn't go "Full Speed" with boken or wasters, as often as we have fighter practices. I know this point can be debated, but just from what I have seen and experienced with this issue. (I have had my knuckles split open, with machetes doing Arnis six count at a stunt show.) They didn't have super foam and padding, nor could they afford to have the fingers smashed or split open. Full speed with no hand protection wouldn't be worth the risk, to not be able to attend one's own "cleaning regime" they couldn't just go to the Doc for a quick fix and antibiotics. As for a suggestion: www.flickr.com/photos/rolf_longbow/Polearm gauntlet1 These are good cheap hand protection for great weapon work. These allow you to pop your hand on and off pretty easily for not being 600 dollar finger gauntlet. SirMrks finger Gauntlet www.youtube.com/watch?v=2trJQ5LRMsQ&feature=relateddon't know the price, a bit strange looking, but you shouldn't get hurt.
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Post by Yamanouchi Eidou on Apr 28, 2011 9:41:52 GMT -5
Perhaps this is why the two sword style was never popular. Too easy to destroy your offense without basket hilts and with your hands all out in the open. Also, it's really hard to fight with two hands while on horseback. The concept of Japanese "Two Sword" Styles is actually much closer to the European Sword and Dagger types of fighting, of which you can see a plethora of examples. Here is a place where SCA Rapier fighting might come in handy, advice wise. 1.) Defend with your dagger and attack with your sword. 2.) Defend with the strong of your blade and attack with the debole (point). Most practice manuals of the renaissance will echo this advice over and over. Yagyu Munenori also advises us to know our opponents' reach and stay just beyond it. In Fabris' terms you must maintain the long measure until you can offend in the short measure.
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