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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2011 18:43:29 GMT -5
So, my next big project (somewhat unexpectedly) is a Suoh Hitatare. ( www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/17.htm ) Question #1: Does the suoh (the top half) have overlap panels in front like a kosode? This and other examples of hitatare upper-halfs I have seen do not appear to, but it's somewhat difficult to tell once everything is tucked into the hakama. I have enough fabric to do it either way, but I really don't think the suoh has overlaps. Opinions?
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Jun 12, 2011 18:50:32 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2011 19:31:24 GMT -5
It does not have overlaps. Suo is, as I understand it, a less formal form of the hitatare. Cool. Thanks. I just wanted some external confirmation of my personal opinion. There is a pattern PDF in the Files section over at the sca-jml Yahoogroup titled "Hitatare-types.PDF" With all respect due his excellency, the measurements on that pattern seem imaginary. Twenty inch wide panels? I'm working with 56" wide fabric, and the design makes it very convenient to use 14" wide panels.
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Jun 12, 2011 20:51:56 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2011 21:42:29 GMT -5
The Yoroi Hitatare PDF includes the measurements you need to take to make a hitatare for yourself. I don't believe in cutting panels to fit. With kosode, I fit the garment with large seam allowances at the side seams. These allowances then have to be tacked down, of course.This actually saved me recently. I was able to rip apart a kosode and re-sew it just a bit larger. If I'd cut the panels I would have been out of luck. The "warrior general" suoh on the costume museum site does not appear to be a closely fitted garment. It's also pictured in the red Mitsui Kure 'Samurai' book, as are a couple other types of hitatare. All three are pulled in by the hakama himo and do not appear to be fitted. Also, the "warrior general" suoh appears to be lined. I was planning on lining mine with a plain white fabric.
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Post by Please Delete on Jun 12, 2011 23:28:18 GMT -5
16~20" fabric panels are definitely seen. I agree, however, wtih not cutting the panels down if you can help it--my most recent hitatare is "tailored", but only in that I hemmed it to take in the 'panel width' to match what I figured I need across the shoulders. I found this gave me a better look than when I didn't tailor it, which looked somewhat sloppy. This seems to be not uncommon--the fabric isn't necessarily cut, but it isn't necessarily used to its maximum potential, either.
Some language notes: Suou (or Suoh) is actually separate from a hitatare, and both refer specifically to the upper garment. "Hitatare sugata" (or "Suou sugata") refers to the outfit--hitatare or suou worn with hakama. "Hitatare kamishimo" refers to the hitatare and hakama matching. Suou are often refered to as "Suou hitatare" because they are roughly the same shape, and more people know hitatare than suou. However, suou are more informal garments. The ties are leather, I don't recall seeing any seam reinforcements, and the fabric is often less opulent.
-Ii
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Saionji Shonagon
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Jun 12, 2011 23:35:55 GMT -5
They're not "fitted" garments in the Western sense. However, scale is frequently an issue when adapting these styles to fit people who are not built like the average Japanese. For once I actually had to help someone scale DOWN a hitatare based on these instructions last winter. The opposite is usually the case.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2011 6:20:23 GMT -5
Suou (or Suoh) is actually separate from a hitatare, and both refer specifically to the upper garment. "Hitatare sugata" (or "Suou sugata") refers to the outfit--hitatare or suou worn with hakama. "Hitatare kamishimo" refers to the hitatare and hakama matching. Suou are often refered to as "Suou hitatare" because they are roughly the same shape, and more people know hitatare than suou. However, suou are more informal garments. The ties are leather, I don't recall seeing any seam reinforcements, and the fabric is often less opulent. I was just using the Kure red book as my terminology guide. That said, I acknowledge that the book is full of typos and simplifications. The photos are great, though. Still not every angle, but multiple angles and high enough resolution that you can see they forgot to remove the tack stitches on the hakama for the green Hojo hitatare (This one - www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm ). Both Kure and the costume museum claim the brown, white, and red outfit from the costume museum is made of silk, and that the mannequin represents Takeda Shingen. The costume museum concurs that this is "everyday wear" (obviously, 'everyday wear' varies by class ). There are also simple reinforcements. They seem to be overhand knots of the same leather used for the ties, though they might be braid of the same color. The costume museum marks them "suoh-no-kotsuyu" instead of "kikutoji" or simply "kotsuyu".
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Post by Please Delete on Jun 13, 2011 8:47:02 GMT -5
You're right. They are the simple figure 8 ties, which makes sense, since the stresses would be similar.
Even in silk these seem to be less bling than the formal hitatare.
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bovil
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Post by bovil on Jun 13, 2011 19:48:14 GMT -5
Some language notes: Suou (or Suoh) is actually separate from a hitatare, and both refer specifically to the upper garment. "Hitatare sugata" (or "Suou sugata") refers to the outfit--hitatare or suou worn with hakama. "Hitatare kamishimo" refers to the hitatare and hakama matching. Suou are often refered to as "Suou hitatare" because they are roughly the same shape, and more people know hitatare than suou. However, suou are more informal garments. The ties are leather, I don't recall seeing any seam reinforcements, and the fabric is often less opulent. I haven't seen a difference in the pattern or silhouette of a suou. All the sources I have indicate that a suou is an evolution of the hitatare, with sturdy but simple leather ties and kikutoji. By the Edo period, all types of hitatare had simplified to vestigial sleeve ties (often just a tassel) and seam reinforcements. Determining the "formality" of a fabric is an odd thing. Appropriate use of traditional fibers (such as hemp for daimon hitatare) is more formal than use of fine silks in a suou. Technique counts for something too: tsujigahana-dyed patterns may be more formal than woven brocades, which are definitely more formal than simple woven stripes and plaids, which are still far more formal than peasanty (late period) ikats.
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Post by Please Delete on Jun 14, 2011 1:02:30 GMT -5
The cut seems to be more or less exactly the same (sleeves on a suou are smaller than formal hitatare, but are comparable to more informal hitatare). The Japanese, however, like to classify garments on use as much or more than on cut. So, for instance, a woman's uchiki and hitoe are the same cut, but different garments. It is even unclear to me if the "daimon" counts as a hitatare or not. As you mention, they have the same silhouette. From the Costume Museum: Suou wo tsuketa BushouGeneral in Suou. "Also written "'suoh'. It is nearly the same shape as a hitatare. The hemp fabric daimon (type) hitatare with the large kamon is used, and in addition, the suou with the simplified daimon is used either as everyday clothing by the bushi or by lower ranking persons. [This figure] wears both top and bottom are of the same fabric, the munahimo* and kotsuyu** are leather, and the hakama has thin waist cords of the same fabric (as the rest of the hakama) and a back-plate (koshi-ita).
"In this instance the hair in the middle of the head is pulled back into a sakayaki with a double fold.
"This is taken from an image of Takeda Shingen. This suou is made of silk."
* munahimo = chest cord. **kotsuyu = small "dew drop" seam reinforcements.
The Edo period suou is also listed:
Suou wo tsuketa bushiWarrior in suou. "As for the suou (suhou), it is the first before the daimon and similar hitatare. In the Edo period, kuge and bushi of 6th court rank or lower wore it as court clothing, and the "nagasuou" became the ceremonial garb of warriors of bakufu 6th rank. "This is a nagasuou outfit and the headgear is a samurai eboshi known as a 'funagata eboshi' (boat shaped eboshi). The folded shape of the eboshi is hardened with lacquer. There is a flat triangular board in front and lacquered sides. The prescribed shape of the suou is about the same as the daimon, but the differences are the koshi'ita in the back, the hakama cords are thin and of the same cloth, there is no uwazashi+ and there is a kamon on the koshi'ita "Moreover, the top and bottom are made with bleach-dried fabric++, the sleeves have no reinforcements, while the chest cords and small reinforcements are made of smoked leather. "There are 3 kamon in back and 2 in front on the upper garment, and the hakama has a small one on the koshi'ita as well as two on the left and right sides below the openings. The kosode (in winter?) is "noshime". He has a small sword at his hip and a fan in his hand. "In the case where half-length hakama are used, this is called 'ko-suou'." +Uwazashi are the cords that decorate the front of the hakama, between the koshi-himo and the rest of the hakama. These are probably another type of reinforcement; most people in the SCA neglect this detail. ++I assume that it is bleached and then dyed, given that the example is brown. As for fabric: It strikes me from what I've seen that embroidery and foreign fabrics were considered high-end fabrics. Brocades and damask were also time-consuming products. Stripes or even plaid are much easier (just align the threads on the loom, rather than creating a new pattern each line). Dyes are likewise relatively easy, though the amount of work going into the resist would probably effect the cost; also, the more dyes that are applied. Ikat techniques have been around since the Nara period, though I don't know if it is a continuous tradition, and I'm not sure where it falls, though I imagine it is somewhat similar in concept to plaids, except the work is more in the dyeing process. I admit I am still trying to grasp all the different hitatare-type garments (and I would definitely lump the suou as a hitatare-type garment even if it seems to be, technically, a different garment--like a t-shirt v. a polo shirt). -Ii
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bovil
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Post by bovil on Jun 14, 2011 2:00:47 GMT -5
I admit I am still trying to grasp all the different hitatare-type garments (and I would definitely lump the suou as a hitatare-type garment even if it seems to be, technically, a different garment--like a t-shirt v. a polo shirt). It's more along the lines of black-tie formal and a tuxedo. Black-tie is always a tuxedo, but a tuxedo isn't always black-tie. The cut is nearly identical, it's the accessories and detail that make the difference. There seems to be a lot implied in the usage of names. "hitatare," while the name of the jacket, always implies a hitatare kamishimo (much like "tuxedo" implies the whole shebang, not just the jacket for which it's names). Daimon and suou always imply hitatare and also imply kamishimo. Most garment variation names have a pretty clear derivation. Daimon refers to the large crests on the garment. Suikan refers to the washing and drying method for the silk it's made of. I don't quite get the derivation of suou.
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Post by Please Delete on Jun 14, 2011 23:34:12 GMT -5
Except that a suou actually has differences from the hitatare in that the kotsuyu and munahimo are leather, rather than silk or other braided cord. It seems like a small difference, but it is consistent (and anyone looking at tuxedos, years in the future, will wonder how much difference satin on the lapels really made). And at least Goo defines it as a type of hitatare, so I don't know where I was previously finding it listed as a separate garment. As for the derivation, it seems that the first character indicates that nothing has been done--that explains, somewhat, the idea of the fabric preparation, and seems to indicate that was not as processed (at least originally). The second character is alternately "hou", indicating a robe, while "ou" comes from "ao" which refers to either "kariao" or kariginu, ketteki-no-hou, or a "matching" garment. The same kanji is later used for "fusuma" (the paper screens), but I think that is a separate meaning. -Ii
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bovil
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Post by bovil on Jun 15, 2011 0:57:53 GMT -5
Except that a suou actually has differences from the hitatare in that the kotsuyu and munahimo are leather, rather than silk or other braided cord. It seems like a small difference, but it is consistent (and anyone looking at tuxedos, years in the future, will wonder how much difference satin on the lapels really made). That's actually the point. There are three different standard lapel cuts used for tuxedo jackets, and lapels can be faced with either silk grosgrain or satin. The details and color don't change the silhouette of the jacket, but they do change the formality of the garment. I think that's a good analogy to the rather uniform cut of hitatare-style garments.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2011 6:11:21 GMT -5
It's more along the lines of black-tie formal and a tuxedo. Black-tie is always a tuxedo, but a tuxedo isn't always black-tie. The cut is nearly identical, it's the accessories and detail that make the difference. What? (I realize this is a bit OT for this board, but...) I was always taught that black tie formal meant you wore a tailcoat, and that a tuxedo is semi-formal. The cuts of these two items are not identical.
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