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Post by Uryuu Ujishige on Oct 29, 2011 3:22:53 GMT -5
Background: I also participate on another forum called Martial Talk ( www.martialtalk.com), which is a lot like The Armor Archive, and therefore, predictably, has sections for almost every conceivable martial art in the world. I won’t go into the history of my participation, too much. Suffice to say, I am one of the few, if not the only, SCAer on the forum. Also predictably, my views, and understanding, of some of the more traditional weapon martial arts is different than most of the others on the forum, and we have had some interesting discussions on topics like “SCA Combat”, and “Full Contact” Sparring with Rigid Weapons”. However, this is about some assertions made in a discussion we had called, appropriately, The book of 5 rings ( www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?92110-The-book-of-5-rings). This thread started out simply enough with a new person to Japanese Sword Arts (JSA) asking if anyone had read Go Rin No Sho, where he could get a copy (preferably one with pictures), and what were member’s opinions of the book. The answers were pretty standard until I gave my preferences for which versions I liked, and offered to send him a short article called “Understanding Musashi” I had written as a class handout for a class, I teach, of the same name that is geared towards SCA combat. Two of the other posters, who are sensei, ask me to send them a copy also, which I gladly did. Hajime! Let the “discussion” begin. The discussion quickly turned more into an “Why You Can't Understanding Go Rin No Sho” discussion than the original subject. I won’t bore you with the details. I have linked the discussion so you can read it, if you care to slog through it. During the discussion several statements were made that I am having a problem wrapping my head around, and I was hoping the combined intellect, knowledge, and experience here could help enlighten me. The quotes are these (Italicized are the quotes. Bold emphasis is mine) : “And be prepared to not "get it" the first, oh, 50 times you read it. And honestly never, unless you are training in Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu.”, and “ Remember that you can't really understand the book without a knowledge of Buddhist Sutras.” and “unless you are studying the book as part of your study of Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, then you won't get the actual lessons that Musashi is trying to impart.” and “It is necessary to understand both the Buddhist Sutras and HNIR in order to really understand the Gorin no Sho."I realize that these quotes, by themselves are not necessarily in context with the entire discussion, but they are in context with the overall points that were being conveyed. After reading my article one of the sensei correctly identified my use of Go Rin No Sho in the vein of a technical manual, then immediately indicated that it can’t and couldn’t realistically be used in that manner, and that the only way to “understand” Go Rin No Sho is to follow the advice in the above quotes. I, of course, disagree. Here is my problem. I have been studying and using Go Rin No Sho for over thirty years. I have read many different versions and several studies about the book, and never have I read, or seen, any work that, even remotely, put it in the category being religious in its nature, other than Musashi invoking the name of Buddha as a part of his writings. Am I out of touch and missing the esoteric and religious meanings contained in the book? Have I totally misinterpreted the lessons Musashi is trying to impart? Is it possible that Go Rin No Sho is not primarily about learning the basics of fighting, and the strategy of combat? Have I spent the last thirty plus years clueless? Kevin |
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Post by Kano Hiroyoshi on Oct 30, 2011 19:54:14 GMT -5
I've only read the book twice but what I got out of it was that it was less of an "instruction manual" and more of a "how-to-train manual." What I mean is that I felt Musashi was trying to teach a "fighting mindset" more so than the specifics of fighting.
There are sections of the book that do explain specific techniques, and I can understand the argument that those sections really only apply if you specifically study his school. But there is so much more to the book than just the explanation of specific techniques, so much that applies to all forms of martial combat. Heck, much of the book can be applied to other, non-martial aspects of life. Else why would I have read so often that Japanese business men use it as a business guide?
So yeah, I don't see the book as an instruction manual but as a guide to the way of thinking like a warrior. Does the author not say repeatedly, "You must study this," "This will require much practice," etc.? It's meant to set you on the path, not take you all the way there. I did feel there were spiritual implications to what he wrote, but nothing really religious or Buddhist in particular.
-Hiro
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Post by Uryuu Ujishige on Oct 30, 2011 21:33:09 GMT -5
The "technical manual" tag is what the sensei used, and I agreed because the debate was already getting convoluted and I didn't want to start a thing over semantics.
You see Go Rin No Sho the way I do. In a very generic way it is about the bare basics, and then expanding your knowledge and skills through experience and practice.
There are some specifics that a student needs to pay special attention to, especially the first five sections of the water book.
Kevin
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Oct 30, 2011 22:57:21 GMT -5
OK, gentlemen, let me preface this by saying I haven't looked at GRNS in decades, and that, IIRC was one of those editions for the 80s business audience. * However, no one lives or writes in a complete vacuum and I suspect that at least a nodding acquaintance with Buddhist thought might add dimensions to your reading. The only reason I'm suggesting this is that all my recent reading on tea has convinced me I need to become more familiar with Zen and other Japanese Buddhist sects so I can get a better handle on it. I am currently wrestling my way through a scholarly survey of the life and writings of Shonin Shinran, founder of the Jodo Shinshu sect. That said, I'm the daughter of an academic and ANY position can be argued and defended, depending upon what one's agenda might be. YMMV. *...which means I'd better add it to my To Be Read pile at some point.  |
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Post by Uryuu Ujishige on Oct 31, 2011 3:44:12 GMT -5
OK, gentlemen, let me preface this by saying I haven't looked at GRNS in decades, and that, IIRC was one of those editions for the 80s business audience. * However, no one lives or writes in a complete vacuum and I suspect that at least a nodding acquaintance with Buddhist thought might add dimensions to your reading. The only reason I'm suggesting this is that all my recent reading on tea has convinced me I need to become more familiar with Zen and other Japanese Buddhist sects so I can get a better handle on it. I am currently wrestling my way through a scholarly survey of the life and writings of Shonin Shinran, founder of the Jodo Shinshu sect. Agreed, and I have done exactly what you have suggested, especially in area of Zen. Many of the passages in the Ground, Water, and especially the Void books have Zen at the core of their concepts, and some are completely Zen in nature. It is necessary to study, and have a knowledge of Zen to understand many of the lessons Musashi is trying to impart. Musashi was definately influenced by Buddhism in his writings, and again, at least a basic knowledge of Buddhist thought and philiosphy are necessary for insight into those influences, and how they affect his teachings. That said, I'm the daughter of an academic and ANY position can be argued and defended, depending upon what one's agenda might be. YMMV. *...which means I'd better add it to my To Be Read pile at some point. Again, agreed, however, I personally can only allow that credibility to go only so far as it relates to the assertion that Go Rin No Sho seems to be considered something of a significant Buddhist religious work by the Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, and that true understanding of what Musashi is teaching can only occur by being a student in that school. Maybe, my lack of understanding is a product of my gaijin thinking. I have read over Go Rin No Sho several times since the disscussion occured, and tried to comprehend it in a Buddhist religious context. A few of the writings can take on the aspects of parables, but otherwise I have not been able to make that leap. If I am incorrect in my comprehension, I will gladly accept correction, but the how needs to be explained. I truly wish to understand. Kevin |
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Oct 31, 2011 13:46:19 GMT -5
Agreed, and I have done exactly what you have suggested, especially in area of Zen. OK, couldn't really tell from your initial post whether or not this was the case. Again, agreed, however, I personally can only allow that credibility to go only so far as it relates to the assertion that Go Rin No Sho seems to be considered something of a significant Buddhist religious work by the Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, and that true understanding of what Musashi is teaching can only occur by being a student in that school. Could be. I know "our Way is the best Way" is a facet of the way some schools teach, or at least the way some of their students represent their schools. |
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Post by Uryuu Ujishige on Oct 31, 2011 19:42:14 GMT -5
The people who were posting that the only way to understanding was through HNIR either were current, or former, kenjutsuka of the ryu. So, their personal takes on understanding Go Rin No Sho are probably in line with the ryu. My personal speculation, based on ryu historical information given by the sensei during the discussion, and my own historical knowledge of how martial arts schools in Japan developed in the Edo period, is that there became less and less a need for fighting, and people no longer felt it necessary to develop fighting skills. In order to attract students to the ryu, and following the strategies put forth by Musashi, the sensei in the ryu began to change the curriculum from a learning and developing fighting skills to a more esoteric " doing the katas in as pure a form as possible is the art" format. At the same time they began to develop the ideas of the "deep religious" meanings in Go Rin No Sho to add to the mystique of the ryu and that, of course, understanding can only be garnered through studying at the ryu. This speculation seems logical to me given the historical data I was given, and what I have been able to determine the ryu seems teaching today. [Could be. I know "our Way is the best Way" is a facet of the way some schools teach, or at least the way some of their students represent their schools. Yes, that is something that has been going on ever since two different schools developed in the same martial art, and I find those type of sentiments disturbing. I have viewed hundreds of martial arts technique and sparring videos, and I am constantly dismayed at amount of vitriolic criticisms that I see from so-called experienced martial arts students and some instructors. Some videos ask for, and get, constructive critiques, but none of them deserve the disparaging comments I have seen them receive. Kevin |
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Post by Miyamoto Takezo on Feb 12, 2012 0:54:47 GMT -5
Greetings all! I understand this thread is now four months old, and Kegage-dono, you have probably already received the answers you were looking for, but I do have some experience on this subject and would like to share a bit of what I have learned so far if that's alright. My Uncle lived in Kamakura for 25 years, there he learned Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu from a colleague who trained for several decades at the original school in Miyamoto. Since my Uncle is not Japanese, he was not permitted to learn the actual ryu in the dojo itself and so was taught privately by his colleague. My Uncle then began training me when I was twelve. I have been studying HNIR for 16 years and am still just a beginner. (This is why I've chosen the name/persona I have for SCA, as it is what I'm most familiar and comfortable with about feudal Japan) That being said, here is what my lessons have brought me to understand: Go Rin No Sho is not just a book about martial training, or martial combat, or religion, or advice for daily living. Also, it was Musashi-sensei's absolute intention for certain things to be difficult to understand, alot of it will not make sense until you are ready but keep trying! That is part of the learning process and what it is for!  He wrote the book for his successor when he knew he was dying so it is designed to be there in his absence. It is, in its entirety, a book designed to convert your very life and mind, your very being, into that of a true martial artist. In its entirety, Go Rin No Sho covers all aspects of how one should act, think and feel in all aspects of life. This is why Musashi-sensei named it as such. "The Book of Five Elements" or "The Book of Five Rings." Each chapter refers to philosophies and techniques pertaining to a different aspect of one's life, this is what the elements are referring to. You see, you cannot become proficient in the Way if you are only skilled at sword cutting. You cannot be proficient in the Way if you are only good with your footwork, or kata, or if you have every technique memorized. That way of thinking creates holes, and at some point or another, an opponent will recognize those holes and kill you. The true Way is to be proficient in all things. This is why the proper translation refers to the five elements as rings. These rings interconnect with each other, to create a perfect warrior. There is a lot of Buddhism influence in Musashi-sensei's writing, particularly Zen Buddhism. Another way to think of "Go Rin No Sho" is not just as elements, but also the five aspects of the human being combining together as one. One mind, one body, one soul, one heaven, and one earth. To dedicate all of these things toward one goal and nothing else: that is to say, the Way of the sword. Musashi-sensei's hope was that by understanding this, the student will close all holes in their life, not just in fighting, but in every aspect of life. That way, there is no room for someone to be impatient, nervous, furious, distracted, or conceited. No room at all for error. There is simply complete and serene focus and in that way, it is impossible to be defeated. I will probably spend the rest of my life trying to accomplish this, its not an easy goal to achieve and even more difficult in a time when we are ruled by the materialistic, fearful and self absorbed "merchant" class, it means we all have bad habits to overcome before we can truly follow the Way. I hope this makes sense. Don't give up! Read it twenty more times and study it a hundred more times! |
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Post by Uryuu Ujishige on Mar 2, 2012 22:59:25 GMT -5
Takezo sama, thank you for your well thought out and informative response, and my apologies for not responding sooner.
I am very impressed with you, and your uncle's, experiences, and I am envious in the regard that I would loved to have had those opportunities.
I have a few students, and others, that I have discussions with about Go Rin No Sho, and your first statement is almost verbatim what I tell them in our first discussions. I understand the things in his life that influenced Musashi-sensei in his writing of Go Rin No Sho, and the reasons he wrote the book. I personally use many of the lessons I have learned from his work in my everyday life outside of martial arts. It has also taught me many things I use as to my personal outlook on the world at large, and how I interact with individuals.
All of the things you mentioned in the in your following two paragraphs, I have knowledge of and understand. As I mentioned in my first post I have been studying and using Go Rin No Sho for over thirty years, and in that time I have probably read it hundreds if not a thousand times, and I am still learning from it. I went back and re-read my original post and I can see how someone could think that I see Go Rin No Sho as only a technical manual for learning strategy and combat. I assure you that is not the case. The article I mentioned was written more in that regard so as to appeal to the SCA fighter, who is more often only interested in those aspects.
While some of the discussion on Martial Talk centered around the article I wrote, most of it was about the creteria one has to meet in order to comprehend and under Musasha-sensei's teachings. I don't know if you read the discussions I referred to on Martial Talk, but the gist of the comments I received were to the effect that I could not even begin to understand Go Rin No Sho unless I read, and understood the Buddist Sutras, and specifically, had to trained in a Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu dojo. They made it sound, that to them, Go Rin No Sho is a religious document. While I understand they use Go Rin No Sho as the “bible” of their school, as do I, however, I can't accept the concept that it can't be truly understood without meeting the above criteria. I believe that while I do not have a total understanding of Go Rin No Sho, who really does, I believe I do have a good understanding of Musashi-sensei's time honored work.
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He wrote the book for his successor when he knew he was dying so it is designed to be there in his absence.