About titles

[Sō Haruko]

I am embarrassed to even be asking this question! ^_^; So impolite! *hides behind a fan*

Here's the situation. I am a newcomer to the Kingdom of Caid. I lived in the Kingdom of the East a long time ago, and acquired an AoA under my old persona's name (Lady Lucia diSalerno).

I've made a point of contacting the local-types about the Order of Precedence, so that's been dealt with (I hope). The difficulty is that I keep running into situations where people will ask for a name, with the implication of "and title". I've been introducing myself with just my name, so far, because I know that it's impolite, as a Nihonjin, to elevate one's self when speaking or writing to another.

Is there a proper, polite way to let someone know that you have a title? How would you even write or say that? You never call yourself -dono or -hime, it's rude. ^_^; *ducks behind the fan again in embarrassment*

Edit: I should make it a point to add that honestly, it's not that the title is that important! It's just that ... sheesh, it's so awkward, and I don't know how to deal with it except to just slide the AoA under the kotatsu and pretend it doesn't exist. Which seems wrong; one's status is very important in medieval Japan, as I understand things ...

[Noriko]

I always saw the SCA as a sort of neither-here-nor-there sort of place- it's not quite the medieval days of yore so the rules don't always apply. I think since the people you are talking to want to know your title then you should introduce yourself as Lady So and So. I'd use the English language one first since the standard titles tend to be ones people remember. If they ask what Japanese language title your persona would use, then you can further clarify.
I think humility is all about attitude. If you are gracious and kind in your interactions with others, you're great.

[Ishida Kentarou Mitsumasa]

To me, introducing yourself as "Lady <Naninani>" is a perfectly acceptable compromise. It addresses your Japanese concern for rank, their concern for knowing your rank, and the fact that as Japanese people we are playing at being guests in a European court.

I find that only 5% or less of my SCA colleagues are actually curious about proper ways to address me in Japanese, and those people get a kick out of doing it right. To everyone else, I'm just "Ishida", and I know that they mean no disrespect when they call me that. It's just how their system works. Once again, we are guests.

On the other hand, I make a point out of addressing other SCA Japanese correctly, and I also like to educate other less-informed SCA Japanese about how they can address me correctly when it is appropriate. If we don't treat each other using our native etiquette, who else will?

[Saionji Shonagon]

Ah, the conundrum of modern reality and period behavior: ideally someone should introduce you with the appropriate honorific or title, e.g., "Lord John Everyman, may I present So Haruko-hime." The reality is that we often have to introduce ourselves.

Now, there isn't really a Japanese analog at your rank level to self-identify as. That said, with the exception of people with Japanese persona who know how to use period honorifics, most folks are going to run with "Lady __________," or __________-san (and they'll be so proud they remembered the modern honorific!) or "my lady."

Trust me, I've been signing all my stuff Saionji Shonagon since January, and nobody in my kingdom has expressed curiosity over what looks like a name change and is actually a title I can style myself by. One or two have remembered to call me Saionji-sensei or Hana-sensei, and even Mistress Hana (which, I've got to tell you feels pretty darn weird).

If you don't include something that sounds like a title, it may prod people to ask, in which case, you can use it as a teaching moment.

[Saionji Shonagon]

Apr 10, 2012 15:48:52 GMT -5 Ishida Kentarou Mitsumasa said:

I find that only 5% or less of my SCA colleagues are actually curious about proper ways to address me in Japanese, and those people get a kick out of doing it right. To everyone else, I'm just "Ishida", and I know that they mean no disrespect when they call me that. It's just how their system works.

The West Kingdom, being the first one, is extremely top heavy with old used peers. Culturally, this means that most of them take an oh so casual "Oh, call me ________," approach, which means you'd better savor those three cheers when the herald announces you as Lady AoA because you might never get to hear it again. I'm not sufficiently familiar with the culture in CAID to know if this is the case where you are. However, part of the romance and fun of the SCA is the use of titles and courteous modes of address, so I try to use 'em, and bow and all that.

[Shinomori Haku]

i find this thread adorable... Ishida san is right thu we are a guest so it dons't matter what they call us as long as its respectful alot of the western personas call me by my real name most of the time, but my solders call me Shinomori Sama , good friends call me Haku kun, one time this english persona keept calling me chan because he thought my hakama was a dress lol but its not something i wouldn't do if the situation called for it lol >>

[Yawata Saburou Tadamori]

I agree with Ishida-dono completely.
I am more often called Subaru or Soggy Dough than Saburou by the people who know me in my kingdom (damn midwesterners not being able to pronounce the easiest language to pronounce ever)
But I enjoy it, it is a nickname, and those that use them are still friends of mine. Just as those the just call me Saburou are, just as those that call me Yawata Saburou are.

[Ishida Kentarou Mitsumasa]

Apr 10, 2012 16:33:48 GMT -5 Shinomori Haku said:

Ishida san

Haku-dono, "-san" is modern. "-dono" is what we would use to be polite to each other in period.

There's more madness about modes of address on Effingham-sensei's website, but I tend to use "-hime" for women and "-dono" for men to be safe.

[Lash]

mines easy ... Lash . or Rasshu lol!! soon tho it may change as i am trying ( stress trying) to register my adopted name of Minomoto-Shintaro-Masashiga. but to all here and my familly i am just Lash.

[Sō Haruko]

Thank you, everyone, for your thoughts. *bows respectfully* I suspect I'm going to have a while where most of the people I know call me by my modern name anyway, since it took me a while to settle on my SCA name.

That said, I think I'm going to start using a phrase similar to, "My family name is Sō, and my personal name is Haruko. It's a pleasure to meet you," when I need to introduce myself, because the name is foreign enough that people boggle for a minute when it's said all at once.

[Ishida Kentarou Mitsumasa]

Based on seeing Ii-dono introduce himself at Twelfth Night, I think you might have fine luck just introducing yourself the way you want to be called. Most of the converstions went like this:

Ii: "Hi, I'm Ii."
Person, slightly confused: "Just Ii?"
Ii: "Yes. Nice to meet you."

And then it all worked out. If you want people to call you Sō, I think that would work just fine.

[Sō Haruko]

Heh. Yes, except that Rokurō-danna is also Sō. Makes sense for us, but probably confusing for the namban, yes?

I like it, though. I'll ponder. (;

[Saionji Shonagon]

I spent some time under the nickname "Makiwara" until I figured out a decent name. Until fairly recently most of my Western friends would default to "Jehanne" or "What's your Japanese name again?" Though there were a few who would take a valiant stab at "Saionji." When I got tapped to serve on Takeshi-dono and Sora-hime's court last year and met a bunch of their court members (none who did Japanese) who I was going to have to work with regularly, not to mention Their Highness' three young children, I told them all to call me Hana. That's easy enough for people to remember that it's finally sticking.

[kazuyama]

I may need some correction on this one on how it was correctly done, but in the old days a warrior would introduce himself as such and such, son of such and such before engaging a duel or battle. I think all of the advice given so far is worth its weight in gold, but I have a feeling that stating your rank and position would not be an error if the time was right. I think that common place introductions would work out fine, but something official would warrant explaining who you were.

[Please Delete]

One thing to note: The more I've read, the more it seems that the actual practice of announcing oneself before battle is less common that it appears--it is rather like the stories of chivalry in Europe. Later authors loved to add this bit to historical heroes--after all, if nothing else it allows you to give a little exposition on this warrior and it feels dramatic. I don't know that we have many contemporary accounts of it actually happening. Thus, it is difficult to give a strict format for how to go about introducing yourself on the battlefield.

That said, you are correct, and whether in English or in Japanese there are appropriate times and ways to introduce yourself. For instance, if I know that it is my status as either a Baron or a Pelican that would carry weight in a given situation, I may introduce myself as either "Baron Ii Katsumori" or "Ii Katsumori, a member of the Order of the Pelican". It is not rude to do so when the information is requested or required (e.g. if someone is trying to line you up in order of Precedence, or if someone wants to formally introduce you).

From there, I usually let people choose their own method of addressing me--Baron Ii, Master Ii, or even Lord Ii are all fine by me. If someone says "Ii-san" or "Katsumori-san", I usually thank them for the kindness of using a Japanese honorific, and then let them know that if they meet other Japanese personas that they may want to use the more period "-dono" as a unisex honorific. I will likewise thank someone but often decline the title "-sensei" unless I am actually teaching a class, and if someone asks specifically how to address me, then I will give them several options.

The key for all of this is not to throw titles in people's faces, nor require that they address you in anything other than their own language. I do not feel affronted when someone uses a non-Japanese title (or title-equivalent) with my persona name any more than when a Japanese person uses "Josh-san" or a Thai person says "Khun Josh". It is all an attempt by the person to be polite, and should be accepted as such.


-Ii

PS: And I usually sign my posts and e-mails with just "Ii" rather than "Ii Shonagon Katsumori" or something similar because it teaches people to use my family name, "Ii" in addressing me. My friends and family can know when to use "Katsumori" or even "Saburou", but since most interactions between personas are in public and between people with whom I don't necessarily have that close bond with, "Ii" keeps the confusion to a minimum (and it is easier for non-Japanese speakers to remember).