Mega Zenjirou Yoshi
New Member
The Scadian formerly known as Lord Drogo Bryce of Middlefordshire
Posts: 175
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Post by Mega Zenjirou Yoshi on Apr 3, 2014 15:28:13 GMT -5
I've been cleared for Pennsic this year, both at work and at home. New tent (mundane canvas) showed up today, and even though it was funded by our tax return, my sweetie is gonna give me the hairy eyeball if I make any more large expenditures. So right now I’m trying to come up with cheap ways to spiffy up my camp visually, that serve practical purposes. The project that is currently obsessing me is a Nihonese kitchen. I am decent cook. Most things I try my hand at come out edible, with the occasional dish that is super delish. I also learned to cook at Rainbow Gatherings, so I tend to be pretty adaptable, don’t require state of the art equipment, and can improvise pretty readily (though I frequently make way too much food.) All that being said, I’m not crazy about camping-style stoves. So researching a little about period kitchens I’m seeing setups like this: or this: and it occurs to me, these are basically earthen rocket stoves. Does anyone have any experience creating, and/or using such a thing at Pennsic or other war? Closest I’ve found online are some folks who’ve crafted European styled earth ovens. www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/ovenpics.htmlDefintely admirable and cool, but not exactly what I’m aiming at. Researching rocket-stoves (which is it’s own time-vacuum rabbit hole) I’ve come across this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSKj3xYe3T8which would be a good starting point. Fill in the gaps, so it is a solid box, cover with mud/clay, and incorporate some other features of rocket stove design found in this video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIMi0DVDvqwmost notably, pot supports, small gap around pot and a pot skirt. I’m thinking of designing a two burner stove. One burner custom fitted to a large pot for boiling water, making soups, cooking noodles, and steaming rice and dumplings. The other burner would be used for grilling and sautéing. The benefits I see in this set up are: - Easy to make look and function like a period kitchen.
- Efficient use of readily available fuel.
- Safer for humans and the environment.
- Cheap!
Still in the brainstorming phase, and will update as more resources and references are discovered, and designs and prototypes are developed. Any ideas, input or soul-crushing critiques are welcome.
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Post by solveig on Apr 3, 2014 18:13:22 GMT -5
What you are seeing in the photograph is the kamado (if I recall the term correctly) in the doma (earthroom) which is adjacent to the daidokoro (kitchen). Basically, cooking was historically split between the two spaces. The kama (kettles) that you see are for cooking such things as rice and I am fairly certain soup as well. If you are interested in using a trivit (I own two of the things but forget the Japanese word for them at the moment) to hold up pots over a cookfire, then you should know that the "feet" go up against the bottom of the pot and the ring part goes down into the fire for Japanese cooking purposes. Apparently, Europeans orient them in exactly the opposite manner. Regardless, the trivet holds up various cookpots. Incidentally, the daidokoro had an elevated wooden floor with possibly hearth holes cut in it. If you can find iron chopsticks, you can use that for cooking. Cast iron pots with wooden drop lids (you may be able to find these at an Asian market) are useful for simmering things in. I have even cooked rice in the things even though that is not what they were designed for. Here is a partial view of a kitchen from the emaki Shuhanron.
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Mega Zenjirou Yoshi
New Member
The Scadian formerly known as Lord Drogo Bryce of Middlefordshire
Posts: 175
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Post by Mega Zenjirou Yoshi on Apr 3, 2014 21:45:39 GMT -5
Yup, kamado, I just have a hard divorcing the term from its modern progeny, the big green egg and its knock-offs. Found this link of some modern folks building a kamado... link
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Post by Atsumori on Jun 27, 2017 14:41:43 GMT -5
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Post by solveig on Jun 27, 2017 23:31:13 GMT -5
There where portable versions of Kamado as well known as Mushikamado. There might have been such things, but I sort of doubt it. It would be difficult to make a portable version of a kamado. Certainly terra cotta would have trouble standing up to such use and would be quite heavy. It is actually easier to build a kamado than to move the things around. A group of people used to construct earthen ovens at Pennsic each year. Regardless, there is no entry for mushikamado in『講談社古語辞典』so the word is almost certainly not premodern if it is genuine at all. Also, the only meaning that I can think of for mushi in the context more or less means "steamy" and not "portable". Do you have any reference for these things? There are portable hearths called furo 風炉 which were used for the tea ceremony in period. There are both iron and ceramic versions. There is also a portable hearth called an okiro 置き炉 which is used to practice ro 炉 (sunken hearth) procedures when a sunken hearth is not available. However, I doubt that these were around prior to the seventeenth century as there would have been no need to fake a sunken hearth. However, there were similar objects which were used for different purposes. There is also the konro 焜炉 which is a somewhat small portable earthenware hearth used for grilling. However, this word appears to be modern as well. The only fire devices which appear in Shuhanron『酒飯論』are: 1) Pretty ordinary looking kamado, 2) pretty ordinary looking ro, and 3) pretty ordinary looking furo. It is not at all clear to me that the kamado in that image is actually made out of iron. There are clays in Japan which look about that color when fired. Only one of the four objects in the photograph is a kamado. Further, thre is no indication of scale. If these were made for actual use, they would likely be fairly large. I think that you may be mistaking sunken hearths for wooden boxes. Sunken hearths come in both square and elongated versions. They are generally edged with a wooden border. Today, sunken hearths used for the tea ceremony have metalic liners which hold the ashes at the bottom. I suspect that wooden boxes were used in the past. The device in that picture is rather odd as it appears to have two fire boxes. The upper two segments are a fairly typical cast iron kama-furo set which can bee seen in Shuhanron. Reproductions of this sort of set are readily available. They are good for boiling water which is what they are being used for in the poicture. The lowest of the three objects appears to be made out of some sort of light colored clay and appears to have a fire in it as well. This is positively weird and suggests that the artist was unfamiliar with actual tea implements or at least with seeing them actually in use. It is unlikely that furo would be used to make soup. We have fairly good reason to believe that either cauldrons inset into kamado or cast iron pots with wooden drops lids sitting on trivets in sunken hearths were used to make soup. At one minka-en in Japan there is an old farmhouse with an installation called a de. In this setup, a very large cast iron pot is held by a four sided heavy wooden lattice which in turn is suspended by chains attached to each corner. Regardless, a kama is not a particularly good device to cook urushi-gome and simply will not work for mochi-gome. Regardless, it is fairly easy to acquire cast iron nabe with wooden drop lids in Japan. Do not buy a do-nabe which is the earthenware alternative.
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Post by Atsumori on Jun 28, 2017 8:14:10 GMT -5
Thanks for the response Solveig. In response to the maple viewers i believe the bottom ceramic vessel is a storage container for the charcoal. As you can see it dose not have the red in it like the top one and it and it almost looks like there are some bundles tied together with string. You are right about the sunken hearth it looked like a raised freestanding one to me for some reason. imgur.com/a/2Qj0h I was thinking of something like the portable boxed hearth in the second image. Also in response to the image of the portable kamado I did not mean to reference that image as being iron. It is ceramic. here is the full link.https://heritageofjapan.wordpress.com/following-the-trail-of-tumuli/rebellion-in-kyushu-and-the-rise-of-royal-estates/village-settlement-patterns-the-homestead-emerges/the-kamado-stove-innovation-improves-home-life/ It is listed as "mini Kamado" Whether it was meant to be portable or not i dont know. I just figured it was a more portable style that could be useful. Thanks for the in depth response. I'm still doing research on the topic.
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Post by solveig on Jun 29, 2017 11:30:18 GMT -5
Unfortunately, that blog is unreliable. What they write about social hierarchy and power structure is nonsense. Maybe they cribbed Clavel's novel or something like that. It is at best superficial and suggests that the author never read an actual history book about Japan. I ran across their writing about social hierarchy somewhat by accident while trying to get your most recent link to work.
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Post by Bun'ami on Jun 30, 2017 7:47:15 GMT -5
There where portable versions of Kamado as well known as Mushikamado. Checkout JAANUS and search with kamado. They give you a bit of history, documentation finds (emaki), alternate words. Though I think the word mushikamado implies rice cooker, not necessarily a portable kamado.
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Post by Bun'ami on Jun 30, 2017 21:16:36 GMT -5
There where also portable hearths. Essentially wooden boxed filled with sand or earth which you can build a fire in and use trivets and pots with. This can be seen in Solvieg's post. I think that you may be mistaking sunken hearths for wooden boxes. Sunken hearths come in both square and elongated versions. They are generally edged with a wooden border. Today, sunken hearths used for the tea ceremony have metalic liners which hold the ashes at the bottom. I suspect that wooden boxes were used in the past. Sorry for hijacking your thread. Yes there were portable hearths, both pictures are from the Kamakura/Muromachi period. The first is a temple kitchen ("Budding lyrics" (Nishihonganji temple collection)), wooden hearth filled with sand/ash, cooking on a trivet, really like the spoon. The second is the same thing but from a different source ("Manga lyrics". From the top 2 volumes, bottom 10 volumes (Library of the National Diet Library), 1351), just a better picture. (Edit) Found another one, Ueto Shimotori Picture Scroll (Sample)Muromachi Period from the Tokyo National Muesum. Here there is a wooden portable hearth (middle top) with nothing being cooked at the moment and the second appears to be ceramic (lower right side) with someone grilling something over it. (end Edit) I find that with a camping situation, it's best to go with small and portable. Making a full kamado will take up lots of room that you might not have available to you (space is limited at Pennsic) and there are restrictions to making such structures. As Solvieg stated before, they have made medieval European clay ovens at Pennsic, but required prior authorization from the Coopers, could not import any raw materials (PA law), then had to completely dis-assemble the structures at the end of Pennsic and remove from the site. Pre-made objects/structures still required prior authorization (being a fire hazard), and you have to haul it to Pennsic and then back home. Hopefully you have a large vehicle or trailer to do this with. Just be sure to check with the Cooper's before you taking anything and good luck. Bun'ami
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Post by Bun'ami on Jun 30, 2017 21:40:35 GMT -5
Thanks for the response Solveig. In response to the maple viewers i believe the bottom ceramic vessel is a storage container for the charcoal. As you can see it dose not have the red in it like the top one and it and it almost looks like there are some bundles tied together with string. I agree, the container on the bottom appears to be wood and contains bundles of wrapped charcoal. (Sorry if you don't like the photos, I believe these add to the conversation and offer insight to the explanations) In the picture of the Maple Viewers, the subject in question is making tea, but if you can boil water for tea, you can certainly cook urushi-gome and by adding a steamer assemble above the boiling water you can make mochi-gome. Modern re-creationist have made urushi-gome in a smaller portable kamado like this one, using 2 sterno fuel cans, it would not be any more difficult to use 5-6 good sized chunks of hardwood charcoal. The shape of the portable kamado here is very good at retaining heat, typically the inside of the kamado is layered with diatomaceous earth, which is both an excellent insulator and reflector of heat. You can see it as the off-grey interior (Visible though the charcoal adding hole) about the black colored outside.
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Post by solveig on Jul 1, 2017 0:32:03 GMT -5
The shape of the portable kamado here is very good at retaining heat, typically the inside of the kamado is layered with diatomaceous earth, which is both an excellent insulator and reflector of heat. You can see it as the off-grey interior (Visible though the charcoal adding hole) about the black colored outside. The problem is that you are still posting a segment of the Maple Viewers. The person making tea in the Maple Viewers has a cast iron kama 釜 sitting in a cast iron furo 風炉 which itself is sitting on something else. The artist most likely saw the equipment, but most likely never actually saw someone make tea before he painted the picture. The problem is that the fellow who is depicting making tea could never make tea in a tenmoku-jawan sitting on a tenmoku-dai as depicted in the picture. I own that type of chawan and the accompanying stand. I have prepared tea using that type of equipment. You can not do it as depicted in the picture. OK, I take it back He is not using a tenmoku-jawan. He is using a rather ordinary chawan which may not be impossible, but still somewhat unlikely Incidentally, you can buy reproduction kama for the tea ceremony which resemble the kama used for cooking rice complete with the flange. I have long been fond of that design, but do not own one.
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Post by Bun'ami on Jul 1, 2017 1:25:24 GMT -5
The person making tea in the Maple Viewers has a cast iron <em>kama</em> 釜 sitting in a cast iron <em>furo</em> 風炉 which itself is sitting on something else. Dearest Solveig, I will simply have to disagree with you on some of this. Yes, I agree the kama is cast iron, it has all the attachments a cast iron kama would have and the correct shape. The artist was detailed enough to include that. I believe the furo is ceramic, there are no attachments for the kan (かん) on the furo as there is on the kama, the artist didn't even include 'fake' kan on the furo to indicate it was cast iron, also the shape is indicative of a ceramic furo, not a cast iron furo, which is why I believe it's a small portable kamado. Much like the modern unglazed clay furo coated with black lacquer without the top chopped off, which the artist seems to confer by painting the furo a different color (i.e. the black lacquer). In addition, the average density of cast iron is about 7.8g/cm3 while the ceramics is 3.5-4.5g/cm3, implying that it would be lighter in weight and easier to carry around.
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Post by solveig on Jul 1, 2017 6:41:28 GMT -5
Bun'ami!
OK - Yes, there is what appears to be a large rectangular above the floor box in the two pictures you posted:
I have seen these before, and for some reason I did not think of them when I posted last. However, I would not describe these as portable. You will notice that they are quite large and do not have any sort of mounted carrying devices. Rather, I think that they qualify more as retro-fitted. Also, you will note that the two monastic kitchens are really the same picture. They may even be from the same physical scroll. More likely they are from two different copies. Some picture scrolls such as the Shuhan scroll were copied multiple times.
The earthen ovens which I mentioned earlier were set up at several Pennsics. Yes, there are rules about setting up structures and removing them. The real obstacle at Yama Kaminari is reserving space for such a structure. We give back a significant fraction of our personal space to the clan for the pavilion, the courtyard, and other purposes such as the two A&S pavilions (although my own personal allotment accounts for most (if not all) of the A&S pavilion my tent winds up within. Incidentally, I really do not like where I camp. For one thing I worry each year about being run over by a car driven by a drunken attendee.
The advantage with the retrofit units that Bun'ami posted is that they provide a daidokoro cooking area where you pretty much only have to worry about setting up and tearing down the wooden walls. The dirt can be Pennsic dirt from digging a sump hole or other camp purposes. The structure will still occupy a significant amount of camp space. The trivet like units are called gotoku and can be purchase (at the usual hideous cost) from any Japanese tea ceremony speciality shop. I own two. One for use in furo and on for use in ro. The ro version is larger than the furo version.
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Post by solveig on Jul 1, 2017 6:54:48 GMT -5
Yes, I agree the kama is cast iron, it has all the attachments a cast iron kama would have and the correct shape. The artist was detailed enough to include that. I believe the furo is ceramic, there are no attachments for the kan (かん) on the furo as there is on the kama, the artist didn't even include 'fake' kan on the furo to indicate it was cast iron, also the shape is indicative of a ceramic furo, not a cast iron furo, which is why I believe it's a small portable kamado. The shape and coloration which matches the kama still makes me think that they are intending to represent a cast iron furo. Again, the artist has the person preparing tea in a weird pose. So, I do not believe that he was particularly familiar with making tea or at least deliberately decided to depart from possible tea procedure. Sorry, but I have to strongly disagree about this. I have years of experience with glossy black ceramic furo. They would if anything be much blacker than depicted in the picture. The shape is also somewhat different. I even purchased one for myself which I have never used. I do not know whether it has survived multiple relocations. It should be in the storage building. I suppose that is a good point. However, in either case significant weight would be contributed by the sand or ashes inside the furo. Also, they would likely have to carry water around as well which can be quite heavy. Cast iron furo of the type I am suggesting really are not that heavy as the walls are thinner than those of a ceremaic furo. I should have shown you the cast iron kama/furo set that I bought for Sakurako. I had it in the back of the car at Academy.
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Post by Bun'ami on Jul 1, 2017 9:06:13 GMT -5
Again, sorry for hijacking your thread, hope you all enjoy our little conversation. That said, here are some pictures so you all know what were are talking about and you can see the differences, at least from my point of view. I hope Solveig Hakase will show us some of her pictures so I can see of what she is referring to, the differences she points out, from her point of view. Ceramic furo, also called a Nara-furo; Furo in this case means the lacquer-coated low-fired ceramic Nara-buro [奈良風炉], shown above, which was traditionally made in the shape of an oblate spheroid (the top and bottom are compressed inward), and has hi-mado [火窓], air-holes, cut in the front and the back (just like the kimen-buro, from which it was derived, similar to the cast iron furo annotated belwo). This kind of furo is sometimes referred to as a suki-gi furo [透き木風炉], since this is the way it is almost always used†. Technically speaking, the Nara-buro is a type of mayu-buro. Where a distinction needs to be made, the difference is that on a Nara-buro, the kama is rested on top of the incurving rim of the furo itself; whereas in the case of a mayu-buro, see below, which has straight sides, the kama was rested on a gotoku. The cast iron furo type (see below) was set on a paving tile. On the edge of a furo a fire window or cut-out opening provided the necessary draft to keep the sumi (hardwood charcoal) burning properly. A bed of ashes (hai) was laid inside the furo and the sumi placed on top was lighted. The Kama was then set directly on the bronze or iron brazier, but a trivet was used for a clay brazier. Kama for portable ranges were slightly smaller than those used for fixed hearths (Ro). †It was a broken furo of this type that Rikyū adapted for use with his (second) small unryū-gama (after he presented the original one to Hideyoshi, together with Nobunaga’s old Temmyō kimen-buro for which it had been made, for use in the two mat wabi-style tearoom in his Yamazato-maru complex), in imitation of those his son Dōan was making out of discarded Nara- and mayu-buro. Bun'ami
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