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Post by Tecwyn on Jul 21, 2014 14:49:02 GMT -5
Hello, my name is Tecwyn. I am an iaido practitioner and I have become intreseted in trying to create Japanese armour. I am brand new to this site I only found it from following a link through google images, I have read some of the posts and felt like creating my own thread would help me. I have looked at and read the information on Sengokudaimyo.com (A resource you all seem to be very aware of) and the information on myarmoury.com. It feels like the more I read, the less I understand. So would someone please be kind enough to answer a few questions I have and help me understand these amazing sets of armour you make. 1) Dô styles. From my understanding, to create a Dô you can use small scales (Kozane), long bands of material or a pure one piece of material. Scale style? = tokyo-samurai-armor.com/index_samurai_armor_details_125.htmlLong bands and blank = s20.photobucket.com/user/Mrkszoo/media/c1d0f257.jpg.html?sort=3&o=55For a beginner, what should I pursue? Looking at Sengokudaimyo.com there are many different styles of Dô: Okegawa, Yokohagi, Nuinobe, etc and they are all quite unique and confusing. I would like to hear your opinnons, what would you recommand for someone to try. From what I have seen the "Maru Dô" look amazing, but they look far to complex. 2) Material. From reading the other threads it seems if you plan to use plastic ABS is a good choose to use. I presume you purchased sheets, marked and cut out the sections you needed then warped them to fight your body? On Sengokudaimyo.com it was suggested that you could use a premade plastic Kozane called Effingham, does anyone have experience with this and can they enlighted me on it. 3) Guides, Manual or other resources? Finally can anyone share some information, showing build progression or any other information for a beginner like me to study from. Besides from Sengokudaimyo and here www.yamakaminari.com/2013/07/08/making-japanese-armor/ I have been unable to find many resources. Thank you for spending time reading this post, sorry for the beginner questions any help you can provide will be really appreciated. -Tecwyn Lee.
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Mega Zenjirou Yoshi
New Member
The Scadian formerly known as Lord Drogo Bryce of Middlefordshire
Posts: 175
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Post by Mega Zenjirou Yoshi on Jul 21, 2014 19:16:55 GMT -5
Howdy, Tecwyn! 1) Dô styles. From my understanding, to create a Dô you can use small scales (Kozane), long bands of material or a pure one piece of material. Scale style? = tokyo-samurai-armor.com/index_samurai_armor_details_125.htmlLong bands and blank = s20.photobucket.com/user/Mrkszoo/media/c1d0f257.jpg.html?sort=3&o=55For a beginner, what should I pursue? Looking at Sengokudaimyo.com there are many different styles of Dô: Okegawa, Yokohagi, Nuinobe, etc and they are all quite unique and confusing. I would like to hear your opinnons, what would you recommand for someone to try. From what I have seen the "Maru Dô" look amazing, but they look far to complex. 2) Material. From reading the other threads it seems if you plan to use plastic ABS is a good choose to use. I presume you purchased sheets, marked and cut out the sections you needed then warped them to fight your body? On Sengokudaimyo.com it was suggested that you could use a premade plastic Kozane called Effingham, does anyone have experience with this and can they enlighted me on it. Best Thread Ever on using Effingham kozane: Bushi's firstThough some may look down their noses when you mention the idea, with some research and planning, fairly attractive armor can be made out of old plastic barrels. Choose your barrels wisely, don't use sections with embossed letters and logos, and think strategically about using the existing curvature and ridges. I used terra cotta colored Greek olive barrels to create a Kamakura red nuinobe do. For my next do, I will probably buy sheets of brown hdpe, unless the Eyptians get their economy on track, and their brown olive barrels become available. 3) Guides, Manual or other resources? Finally can anyone share some information, showing build progression or any other information for a beginner like me to study from. Besides from Sengokudaimyo and here www.yamakaminari.com/2013/07/08/making-japanese-armor/ I have been unable to find many resources. You have pretty much already found the best resources. Read, re-read, and read again Sengoku Daimyo. Get a notebook, take notes. When you have questions about something search Tousando first, then google. If you can't find it, post a question here. Books are great, as are google image searches, just be wary of the dreaded Edo-era weirdnesses (that really only matters if you are making this armor for SCA fighting). If you are lucky enough to have a museum exhibit tour nearby, examine real pieces (And take lots of pictures to share here!) Most of my questions were resolved by ping-ponging between Sengoku Daimyo and here. Really you should read Sengoku Daimyo three times before starting, and at least another three times during the process.
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Post by Please Delete on Jul 21, 2014 20:15:18 GMT -5
So, the best way to use www.sengokudaimyo.com is to read through it once to get the general idea, and then read through it again for comprehension. That said, there is a "quick n' dirty do" page: www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.ch07a.html. In the end, though, it comes down to several questions: 1) What is this for? Are you trying to build armor to fight/spar in? Decorative? Just a private project? 2) How authentic do you want it (and how much work/money are you willing to put towards that end)? Depending on what you are going for, there are different options. 3) Do you have a preferred time/style that you particularly like? I tend to think that the two easiest styles for most people these days are either a dou made of solid lames or perhaps a tatami-do. Any "sane" (kozane, iyozane, etc.) style can be done without as much metalworking experience, but will take a long time. Those made with larger metal plates are probably faster to create, but you do need to know how to work your medium (whether plastic or metal). Of course, depending on your level of desired authenticity, that will also change things, as it is the little details that really make or break most recreations. -Ii
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Post by Tecwyn on Jul 22, 2014 7:14:55 GMT -5
Hello Ii, First of all thank you for replying and sorry for a lengthy reply. I will keep reading Sengokudaimyo, I have seen the "quick n' dirty do" and I read it again after reading your post and I feel like a child who needs pictures to understand what is happening. I do not know if its just my complete lack of experience in crafting, making etc or my dyslexia I am getting stuck on what seems to be the simplest things and I feel like a moron now more than ever. Just to show you how clueless I feel, "Lame" means something that is unpopular and "Lames" is just the 3rd person present, but I see sentences like "Cut all your lames into whatever length you need." I thought this was a typo on "lines" but it isn't I have googled for the word but I cant to find it so I'm guess "lames" means strips? (sorry for such a small silly question). After reading "quick n' dirty do" a few times. This is what I have taken away from it. -Cut steel into 2 1/2" stips. -Two 10" lames for the front tateage -Three 12"-14" for the back -Four or five 12"-14" for front Curve it to fit your body. Then rivet rows down the "keel" (Searched, seems to be some part of a boat. Checked Glossary on Sengokudaimyo not listed) then punch hole and lace. So I would say I understand 40% maybe 60%. I've tried searching "Quick n dirty do" on this site to see if anyone has done one, cant seem to find any posts. I'm sorry for the stupid questions but if you could clear up what is "keel" and "lames" I would be so appreciative.
Your questions. 1) I kept seeing the term SCA pop up and I had no idea that people did fights in armour. I am just looking to create something I can wear and be proud of. I have never done anything that requires construction. The only thing I have ever done is set up flat pack wardrobes from Ikea thats it.
2) I want something that looks right, wearable and uses the right patterns. I have little knowledge but I guess I mean the helmet and do for example are from the same time period. So if someone who knew what they were looking at wouldn't be like "Well, this is just all wrong" but I'm not going to invest in real japanese leather and other orginal materials. I hope you understand what I mean. Time I have a lot if you said this would take me 8 months I would be fine with that. Money, I am a university student so I'm not really looking to through large sums of money but I don't have any idea how much these materials cost. I presume plastic is the cheapest option?
3) I'm not sure what time period this is in or anything really about it at all but simply the "Do-maru" www.giuseppepiva.com/media//7.jpg does look nice, but I rather be able to make something simple than fail at something hard.
I am open to using Metal or Plastic. I would guess plastic would be better as its cheaper but my grandfather has been an engineer all his life so he has offered his help in drilling (doesn't have a hole punch) the holes. Sorry for writing a lot a guess simply, what does "lames" and "keel" mean? and how much would it cost to build something with plastic or metal?So, the best way to use www.sengokudaimyo.com is to read through it once to get the general idea, and then read through it again for comprehension. That said, there is a "quick n' dirty do" page: www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.ch07a.html. In the end, though, it comes down to several questions: 1) What is this for? Are you trying to build armor to fight/spar in? Decorative? Just a private project? 2) How authentic do you want it (and how much work/money are you willing to put towards that end)? Depending on what you are going for, there are different options. 3) Do you have a preferred time/style that you particularly like? I tend to think that the two easiest styles for most people these days are either a dou made of solid lames or perhaps a tatami-do. Any "sane" (kozane, iyozane, etc.) style can be done without as much metalworking experience, but will take a long time. Those made with larger metal plates are probably faster to create, but you do need to know how to work your medium (whether plastic or metal). Of course, depending on your level of desired authenticity, that will also change things, as it is the little details that really make or break most recreations. -Ii Hey Punkelf, Thank for you replying. I have checked out that link you send me and it has helped me to understand a bit more. I didnt really understand how you could create a full body of armour with kozane scales. The pictures helped a lot as I seem to be like a child now having to follow pictures. I have looked through your "Constructing new armour post". I think I will use plastic as it seems the cheaper option. I have only looked through your post but I'm going to sit down and take some notes on the progress you took to help me just understand how it is done. Quickly searching I have found second hand plain blue plastic 45 gallon drums for sale for £8 ($13?). Seems like a affordable way to create a do. Thanks for the advice. I will look at your post more carefully later today. Howdy, Tecwyn! Best Thread Ever on using Effingham kozane: Bushi's firstThough some may look down their noses when you mention the idea, with some research and planning, fairly attractive armor can be made out of old plastic barrels. Choose your barrels wisely, don't use sections with embossed letters and logos, and think strategically about using the existing curvature and ridges. I used terra cotta colored Greek olive barrels to create a Kamakura red nuinobe do. For my next do, I will probably buy sheets of brown hdpe, unless the Eyptians get their economy on track, and their brown olive barrels become available. You have pretty much already found the best resources. Read, re-read, and read again Sengoku Daimyo. Get a notebook, take notes. When you have questions about something search Tousando first, then google. If you can't find it, post a question here. Books are great, as are google image searches, just be wary of the dreaded Edo-era weirdnesses (that really only matters if you are making this armor for SCA fighting). If you are lucky enough to have a museum exhibit tour nearby, examine real pieces (And take lots of pictures to share here!) Most of my questions were resolved by ping-ponging between Sengoku Daimyo and here. Really you should read Sengoku Daimyo three times before starting, and at least another three times during the process.
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Post by Tecwyn on Jul 22, 2014 11:17:26 GMT -5
Solving some of my own questions now, guess that shows I'm learning a bit.
So "keel" is a section where two parts overlap, so this would be for example on the Kozane scales and "lames" are long bands different to scales.
From reading other posts that use the Effingham Kozane, it takes around 1600 scales but people buy 2000 what would total around £258 for me (not counting shipping). That alone is fairly exspensive as I would have to purchase lacing and other material. Can someone tell me how much it costed them to create their armour. Would buying plastic sheets or 45 gallon barrel or metal sheet be a cheaper method?
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Post by Please Delete on Jul 23, 2014 22:54:45 GMT -5
As you figured out "lame" refers to the strips. In Japanese you will sometimes see them called "boards" (ita) of scales (sane/zane). It comes from the same root word as "laminate", I believe.
Originally, you would take the scales and make them into boards and use those boards (or lames) for the construction.
The "keel" refers to the center of the front (or back) of your armor. If you think of building a wooden boat, it is the centerpiece where the ribs attach, so it has a similar purpose here. By riveting the center line, first, you are going to at least have everything centered. Then, if you are too long on the sides, you can work with that. If you end up starting at one side, though, and working from there, you may find it comes out uneven.
The picture you show is somewhat daunting, and you have a few options to try to do it: 1) Make real kozane. These would be lacquered rawhide--unless you have the tools and facilities for that, though, it is probably going to be too expensive and you won't be able to do it quite right. You would want lots of practice with a small section. 2) Make (or buy) plastic kozane. Cutting them out will take forever, but it will be cheaper. Also, you can then make sure to cut some half-sane pieces. Note: The armor you pictured actually requires more fitted boards (lames) than most, which require different shaped kozane to get it right (not much, but just enough to get the right kind of a curve). That is an art unto itself. 3) Use iyozane: These are bigger, and don't require as much work as kozane, but still have their own issues. You probably wouldn't use kebiki odoshi (the tight lacing shown in the photo), but more likely sugake odoshi, which is more sparse. Not as neat looking, but much easier. 4) Use full metal or plastic boards (lames). You can either leave them as is and do a sugake-odoshi pattern, or else you could get a board, shape it, then carve it to look like rows of scales. For that you need a thick board to start with, so you can have the relief you need when you are finished. This is probably easier than cutting out kozane by hand, if you still want the tight kebiki odoshi lacing.
Beyond that there are various types of riveted methods of construction that don't really have any kind of major lacing, which can also look good if done right.
Does that help?
-Ii
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Post by Tecwyn on Jul 24, 2014 8:43:48 GMT -5
Ok, Thank you. So the complicated bits are very complicated got it. Not ganna try that then. So the way I think I may do this is to buy plastic (Maybe a barrel or just a sheet) and cut out bits. I drew this (In MSpaint) to try and understand how you would do a Sode or the kusazuri, Im pretty sure thats the right word for the bit that hangs off the do. Its not to scale but I hope you understand what I thought would be how to do it. Sode or Kusazuri?What do you think? One piece parts that try and look like iyozane, at least this is what I think they look like. Here is an idea for the Do and Kusazuri? (Image was to big so I had to scale it down but still is too large to be posted here). Just Do: i.imgur.com/Sf257SU.pngDo and kusazuri: i.imgur.com/leuXQOK.pngShould the back be one lame shorter than the front? Once again thanks for all the help. Just thought about the Kusazuri. I baced this Do design on another I saw, I counted and made sure we have the same amount of holes I wasn't very sure on what they were for but I worked out it was to hang the Kusazuri from the bottom of the Do. This isn't to scale I just wanted to know if this is the right about of Kusazuri and rows. I had to move the holes around I will work out better places and how many I need later I just want to know if I got the shape right. Thank you for your advice. Can you look at these 2 links and the picture above and let me know if thats the right shape.
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Post by Please Delete on Jul 24, 2014 20:53:15 GMT -5
Okay, so you have a good eye, but before you cut it out of anything too permanent, cut everything out of card stock or similar paper, first, and try putting it together that way. I have to admit, something looks wrong about the sode; I don't think it is the iyozane. It may just be the number and placement of the holes; they should line up as though on actual "zane", not just randomly, so they should match up with the top of the boards. You definitely want to make sure that the "X" is more like a square. Otherwise you get the "railroad track" look (occasionally seen, but only on really cheap armors, nothing of value that I can think of, or poor modern reconstructions). Also, make sure to curve the sode a bit, don't leave it flat. As for the picture--that is generally correct, but take a look at the patterns on www.sengokudaimyo.com. Here is the older style of okegawa-do: www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/graphics/patterns/oldDoFrPattern.PDFNotice the curve of the pattern? That will help to give you the proper shape when you put it together. Otherwise, it tends to end up a bit too straight, unless you are going for really older styles (which have more of a trapezoidal profile). Also, do you see the parts under the armpits, you are going to want to make sure you get those pieces in there as well. The shaping there will take some effort. Finally, on the kusazuri, you don't want them to be straight and rectangular--you should try to shape them to more of a trapezoid shape. The top board on each should be about edge to edge with the others, while the bottom will overlap. For later styles, they should be curved more than for earlier styles (and some of the earliest, like the oyoroi, were essentially flat). -Ii
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Post by Tecwyn on Jul 25, 2014 8:03:05 GMT -5
Hey, thanks for replying. So the style of Do I showed you there that would be called "Môgami Dô" and the lacing style would be "Sugake Odoshi". I have just seen on Sengokudaimyo what you mentioned about that X railrod track thing. www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/graphics/05graphs/sugake3.jpg So the one on the left is wrong, the tight knots is correct. For the Do it seems to be 2 holes on the left and right edge, with 1 in the middle and 2 more inbetween so a total of 7 collums of holes. For the Sode would the correct style to keep it all correct would it be like this: www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/graphics/12graphs/sodeset2L.jpg The knots would follow the same style. I have gone back and looked at the reference photos I have found and I have just noticed with your comment in mind that the kusazuri aren't all the same. tokyo-samurai-armor.com/index_guide_to_samurai_armor/red_samurai_armor_125/japanese_samurai_armor_2010_141.jpg They get wider as they go down. Question baced on that photo is it the "Môgami Dô" style I cannot tell if it is lames or iyozane kozane. As of writing this 1:58 25/07 I do not understand that PDF of the okegawa-do. I don't really understand what lane is going where. But I'm going to try and look at some okegawa-do Môgami Do and hope it starts to make sence. When I feel like I have a good understand on the shape of lanes, amount and where the holes go I will like to make it out of cardboard sadly I don't seem to have any laying around at the moment. I will redraw my amazing MS paint plans later, will edit it onto this when its done. Edit:Tosei Sode - Redesign: i.imgur.com/jvWGB60.pngWhat do you think about that? This is the understand I have on this part. Sorry I cannot use anything better than MS Paint, only other software I have is 3D studiomax and I dont feel like spending hours. There seems to be another row of holes right on the top on the first Lame I haven't included that as I'm not sure if it has a purpose or just look. Mogami Sode (Sugake Odoshi) - Design: i.imgur.com/2Xy8kFt.pngI am unsure on the bottom lacing. Edit (26/7): Is it possible to make a Do like Maru that has a lot of lacing with lames instead of kozane as that is less work in creating all the scales? I know this may not be the most correct thing but just wanted to know if anyone has done a shortcut like this? Edit (28/07): Kusazuri - i.imgur.com/X58o7rD.png ( with lacing i.imgur.com/poVCkue.png)Based on your feedback of the kusazuri I have tired to come up with some design where the lames increase in size. I tried to bace mine on upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Nerigawa_hon_kozane_maru_dou_kusazuri.jpg and img.photobucket.com/albums/v174/daCraw/20090316172031591_0001.jpg I havent drawn anything to scale so please ignore hole size (which I don't know what it should be for 1/2" lace) or Lame size (which I also dont know) I just tried to understand hole postioning when it increases. The Second link shows a kusazuri with 19 holes at the top and 20 at the bottom. I tried to replicate that but I failed I had large space added at the bottom. I guess I increased the lame size to much. For Sugake odoshi lacing to my understanding is that the gap between collums should be 0.4" and between the rows be 0.33". Can anyone offer feedback on creating an increase size for the kusazuri. Thank you.
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Post by Kurodachi no Mykaru on Jul 25, 2014 9:05:52 GMT -5
For the sode there should be at least 5 lines of odoshi (7 if there is room) but overall the layout looks correct. The hole size and spacing looks too large. If you are using 1cm wide odoshi, the center lines of the holes should be 1 cm apart. The back has more lames than the front (4 upper rather than 2).
It looks like a good start. It is a lot of time and work so the time spent patterning and preparing *before* beginning has the greatest result on the finished product.
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Post by Tecwyn on Jul 25, 2014 9:17:33 GMT -5
For the sode there should be at least 5 lines of odoshi (7 if there is room) but overall the layout looks correct. The hole size and spacing looks too large. If you are using 1cm wide odoshi, the center lines of the holes should be 1 cm apart. The back has more lames than the front (4 upper rather than 2). It looks like a good start. It is a lot of time and work so the time spent patterning and preparing *before* beginning has the greatest result on the finished product. Thanks for the reply, what do you think about this basic plan for a Tosei Sode. (Nothing is to scale, or in anyway sized correctly). I only draw 4 layers as the picture would get too big but I would take your advice and go for 5-7. i.imgur.com/jvWGB60.pngDo you know of a picture that can help me to understand a Môgami sode www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/graphics/patterns/mogamiPattern.PDFEdit: I can see that you create x3-4 of the second lame but the last lame that has the most holes I want to see a picture of that to understand how the lacing looks, do you know of any imagines I cant seem to find something that I know is a Môgami sode and is clear. Edit (21:41 25/7) Design for Mogami sode i.imgur.com/2Xy8kFt.png found some images of one. Thank you for the advice.
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Lash
New Member
perfection isnt an end result but a path to walk upon with your eyes closed.
Posts: 422
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Post by Lash on Jul 25, 2014 12:42:56 GMT -5
this site has a lot of pics and since you are not doing sca there isn't any date restrictions .http://www.toraba.com/detail.asp?c_urn=724&show=&urn=12447&pg=1 tousando.proboards.com/thread/4313/full-latest-armor-image-heavy this was the link that would have helped you immensely but the pics are gone ill ask Yagyu-dono about it and see if he can relink it as his work is pretty amazing .
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Post by Tecwyn on Jul 25, 2014 13:00:46 GMT -5
Hello Lash, Yes I just wish to create something I can be proud of, my 6th dan Iaido sensei wants to see what I am able to make so I want to impress him so I wanted to try my best to keep things more correct. Thanks for that link to Toraba there is some nice images that give me more of a reference. I have found images to be the best help so far. I did see that post but I ignored it after I saw the links were dead. Should I ask Yagyu Tametomo in a private message about the images for this post? It will be a nice post to relate to. Thanks for replying and helping me out. this site has a lot of pics and since you are not doing sca there isn't any date restrictions .http://www.toraba.com/detail.asp?c_urn=724&show=&urn=12447&pg=1 tousando.proboards.com/thread/4313/full-latest-armor-image-heavy this was the link that would have helped you immensely but the pics are gone ill ask Yagyu-dono about it and see if he can relink it as his work is pretty amazing .
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Post by roninpenguin on Jul 25, 2014 22:28:22 GMT -5
Pics are gone because we are migrating servers, we should have them back up soon.
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Post by Tecwyn on Jul 26, 2014 10:33:03 GMT -5
Thank you Roninpenguin, I have bookedmarked your post and look for when it is updated. If you can offer and advice or opinnons on matters I have brought up in this thread that would be very helpfully. Pics are gone because we are migrating servers, we should have them back up soon.
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