Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Sept 7, 2014 21:52:55 GMT -5
Question: is the bias tape wrapped around the waist over top of each successive layer or is it attached to the layer it's keeping closed? Would ties, much like the inner ties for a bathrobe be period? And as for wrapping the kosode, instead of wrapping them between one's bosoms, it gets wrapped over top? First of all, if you don't want to wear Japanese clothing in the SCA, DON'T. This is supposed to be your fun time too. If you're not comfortable with how it looks or feels or how you look or feel, find something else that works for you! Why would you wrap it between your breasts? Kosode and other kimono-form garments are double breasted in construction. You pull the right edge over as far as you can towards the left hip, then do the same with the left edge to the right hip. I have no evidence of inner ties simply because I've only ever been able to look at surviving period garments in books or online and they pretty much never show the inside. Given that they don't exist in modern kimono, they don't seem likely. The himo ties would simply be wrapped, not attached. (In court dress with as many as eight or nine layers, one's dresser actually manages to strip the himo out from under the preceding layer so as not to add bulk!)
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Saionji Shonagon
New Member
One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Sept 7, 2014 22:15:31 GMT -5
Some things to keep in mind when creating persona: You are not IN Europe, you are in your SCA kingdom, a place where people from a variety of periods and cultures are ALREADY thrown together in an unnatural and ahistorical mix. There is no need to try to make up some highly implausible excuse for your being where you are, for associating with friends, significant others or family members with personae different from yours. I find "You're all foreigners to me" works just fine - and is often the basis for some persona play fun. What's your source on slave trade? It's not an area I've researched and I would like to know more. What I *do* know is that we have a great deal of information on the Jesuit mission that took four Japanese converts (plus two servants) to Europe in the late 16th century. We have names, we even have a picture. And I just found yet another translation published by the Hakluyt Society that I'm going to have to get my hands on, thank you! www.ashgate.com/isbn/9781908145031So how do I, as a woman with a Japanese persona, justify my *right* to be here? I don't make up stuff, I'm just here. Just like the nice namban boy who is teaching me how to fight with a rapier, and the Viking lady who insists on serving me fire water from some place called Ireland, etc. In response to your other question, Pierre Souryi's "The World Turned Upside Down" mentions a class called "jizamurai," poorer samurai who held small pieces of land and were often involved in their day-to-day agriculture. Try searching on that term for more information.
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Post by Fukumitsu Noriatsu on Sept 7, 2014 22:23:34 GMT -5
Well that explains why they always come open! Whoops. O.o Luke isn't trying to "force" me into "converting." I'm trying to explore my options and maybe step outside of my European comfort zone a bit. Urgh...8 or 9 layers? How did they move!?!?
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Post by Fukumitsu Noriatsu on Sept 7, 2014 22:49:36 GMT -5
I'm not necessarily trying to justify my right to portray Japanese in the sca, I'm just interested in the history. And I'm a little bit of a perfectionist so if I can find something I have a cool story to tell that's educational. As to my source, I Googled it, so I don't know how factual it is so I thought I would ask if anyone knew more about it. Here's a bit of the article. Portuguese trade in Japanese slaves
After the Portuguese first made contact with Japan in 1543, a large scale slave trade developed in which Portuguese purchased Japanese as slaves in Japan and sold them to various locations overseas, including Portugal itself, throughout the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.[3][4] Many documents mention the large slave trade along with protests against the enslavement of Japanese. Japanese slaves are believed to be the first of their nation to end up in Europe, and the Portuguese purchased large amounts of Japanese slave girls to bring to Portugal for sexual purposes, as noted by the Church in 1555. King Sebastian feared that it was having a negative effect on Catholic proselytization since the slave trade in Japanese was growing to massive proportions, so he commanded that it be banned in 1571[5][6]
Japanese slave women were even sold asconcubines to black African crewmembers, along with their European counterrparts serving on Portuguese ships trading in Japan, mentioned by Luis Cerqueira, a Portuguese Jesuit, in a 1598 document.[7] Japanese slaves were brought by the Portuguese toMacau, where some of them not only ended up being enslaved to Portuguese, but as slaves to other slaves, with the Portuguese owning Malay and African slaves, who in turn owned Japanese slaves of their own.[8][9]
Hideyoshi was so disgusted that his own Japanese people were being sold en masse into slavery on Kyushu, that he wrote a letter to Jesuit Vice-Provincial Gaspar Coelho on 24 July 1587 to demand the Portuguese, Siamese (Thai), and Cambodians stop purchasing and enslaving Japanese and return Japanese slaves who ended up as far as India.[10][11][12] Hideyoshi blamed the Portuguese and Jesuits for this slave trade and banned Christian proselytizing as a result.[13][14]
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Saionji Shonagon
New Member
One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Sept 7, 2014 22:52:40 GMT -5
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Post by Fukumitsu Noriatsu on Sept 7, 2014 23:30:28 GMT -5
It's absolutely gorgeous.
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Saionji Shonagon
New Member
One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Sept 8, 2014 13:02:35 GMT -5
I don't suppose you have the link to the article?
Admittedly, my most recent reading on the period was a fragmentary history of Japan written by Joao Rodrigues and it certainly doesn't touch on slavery.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2014 13:23:24 GMT -5
Would ties, much like the inner ties for a bathrobe be period? I have no evidence of inner ties simply because I've only ever been able to look at surviving period garments in books or online and they pretty much never show the inside. Given that they don't exist in modern kimono, they don't seem likely. I agree that they are most likely not period on kosode. The only examples of inner ties I've seen are on hippari, which are not period garments. However, if you can't get anything else to work for you, they are better than safety pins. Making clothing that fits you properly is, as Saionji-sensei says, better in general.
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Post by Fukumitsu Noriatsu on Sept 9, 2014 12:12:45 GMT -5
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