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Post by hiroantagonist on Jan 24, 2015 13:12:29 GMT -5
The primary question I have is would Obiwan be a registrable by-name for a Japanese persona. I have kind of settled on Shinobu as a given name, meaning enduring, and need a byname as I see my persona as low ranking, risen from the ranks of ashigaru (mid 1500s) so a proper surname as I understand it would be incorrect. As a descriptive name from what I can tell, Obiwan would mean guy who lives near the bay or inlet (region bay) or who lives on a sand bar (belt bay). To me this is about having a cool sounding name, but on top of that, the idea of Jedi minus the superpowers and laser swords, is basically closer to how I imagine my samurai guy than the reality of them, they are more idealized and the sca is all about the idealized Middle Ages. Is it too close to the fictional character? Is it too far from actual naming practices of the time? Thank you for your time, help, and input.
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Post by Please Delete on Jan 24, 2015 21:56:25 GMT -5
So, the truth is, those names don't sound like typical historic names (though "Yoda" is a traditional family name). "Shinobu", modernly, is a woman's name, but I don't think you would see it in period, though I'd need to check to be sure. "Obiwan" doesn't quite mean what you think it means. You are correct that there are words that have those sounds, but I can't think of those words showing up in that manner in placenames, let alone in actual names. To pass your name, you'll need to find evidence of how names are constructed. The easiest is to find names that you like, and use those. We can help with that. For starters, I recommend reading this: www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/miscellany.html (Check out the chapter on names--you may want to also check out the section on Modes of Address). Beyond that, there are several people on this list with Solveig's book on Japanese names, which is on the College of Herald's no-photocopy list (meaning you can just quote the page numbers). Depending on what is important to you in a name, we can help you find a name that will pass the College's requirements and you can use proudly!
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Post by hiroantagonist on Jan 25, 2015 10:04:03 GMT -5
Well wakanosato shinobu is a famous sumo wrestler, and although I did not find it on any list of medieval names, it seamed to follow the pattern of constructing names from words for positive attributes, but maybe I need a 16th century version of it, and I would love any help there. I like it because I really like the kanji, but it might need a different ending. And obiwan was a long shot but it would just be such a cool name. So I still need a by name, and shorter is better I think. I could go with an English translation of an Adana(sp?) name or an Adana name proper. By which I mean a descriptive nickname.
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Post by solveig on Jan 25, 2015 12:03:20 GMT -5
Modern sumo wrestlers often have rather fanciful and therefore distinctive names. These sumo names should not be confused with medieval Japanese names. As for the kanji 忍 NIN it is rather bound up with the ninja who did not usually go around advertising themselves. As for ashigaru. They came from someplace themselves and they most likely came from farmers. Farmers would generally choose some sort of toponymic (place description) for a "byname". Obiwan is likely to elicit howls from people as it is very reminiscent of the Star Wars movie series. There are rules specifically against being obtrusively modern. People trying to name themselves after Star Wars is not particularly new. Such things were rejected decades ago, and I rather think that people would feel unkindly toward them today. Regardless, what you really should be trying to do is name yourself in a way that a real human being would be named. 渾名 adana are not true names, but are rather names by which people called people who had real names. For a modern example the sumo wrestler Chiyonofuji was also known as "wolf" and the sumo wrestler Konishiki was also known as "monster". This sort of name is not something that appears in official documents such as award scrolls, court reports, &c. Further they are not typically added to true names. That is they do not slot into complete names and therefore do not satisfy the need for a byname. In due diligence to the publisher, I should mention that Name Construction in Medieval Japan is in print.
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Post by hiroantagonist on Jan 25, 2015 17:49:51 GMT -5
Ok, so I'll try to adress each point, and thank you for your input. 1 the sumo guy was to illustrate that it is a gender neutral name, as Ii said it was a female name, it follows the pattern of making a name from a word, just maybe not the medeval pattern, but a name from the kanji "shino" should be possible 2 it was my understanding that the kanji was shino, nin, as in ninpo and ninja, is the Chinese pronunciation made popular in America in the 80s and the word shinobi can mean to conceal, but also to endure/survive persecution, and is the combination of the kanji for sword and the kanji for heart, which is why I like it. It is only shinobi no mono, or one who is concealed, that means the same as what ninja has come to mean. 3 in period there were certainly people willing to scull around in the night or wear disguises, and many that were good at it, but proper ninja are mostly post period, as I understand it, and the golden age of ninja clans would be the 17th and 18th century. 4 as to obiwan, joke names, or referential names are not baned as long as they follow period appropriate naming practices and do not clame to be a particular character, the later I think is satisfied by using a given name as a by name. 5 As a by name, geographic origin is how I was trying to justify obiwan, but Adana do satisfy the sca category of by name just as Ivan the red, Edward the bald, exc.. 6 as I understand it, commoner class had no surname, and were known by origin or profession, like hiro the carpenter. By taking a Adana or nickname by name I was trying to reflect that my persona left a profession name behind and adopted, or was given a new name as he changed position in society. 7 that sounds like a cool book and I need to look it up sometime.
Finally I want to say that these are the conclusions my research has led me to and I am by no means an authority. That is the very reason I came to this forum with my questions, to seak the ideas of those mor knowledgable than me.
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Post by solveig on Jan 26, 2015 2:31:02 GMT -5
My impression remains that adana are used instead of names. That is that they replace names and are not used as bynames in Japan. More examples include "octopus" in the Tora-san movies and "monkey" used as an epithet for Hideyoshi. Incidentally, there is no definite article in Japanese so "so-and-so the such-and-such" really isn't a Japanese pattern. As for "shinobu" it is rather grand in and of itself. It appears to be a single kanji nanori. Nanori appear to be pretty much the prerogative of the kuge and the buke. Also, single kanji given names appear to be vanishingly rare for men. A more humble hame might be a simple birth order name such as Tarou or Jirou.
As for Obiwan. It is not an extant family name in Japan and does not appear to be a given name either. Further, as far as I know, there is not a pattern in Japan of using either nanori or yobina as bynames.
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Post by hiroantagonist on Jan 26, 2015 20:43:13 GMT -5
I'll admit the bulk of my knowledge comes from: www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/names.htmlAnd as far as I can tell it is a great source for name resources in regards to the sca. By what I can gather, in period, shinobu is a mans name. On that site, using 'item from list a plus item from list b equals name AB' it can be a two kanji name and regarding one kanji names, warring states period (1450-1605ish) is a time when you would most likely find a one kanji name. I have even found laurel precedent for rejecting shinobu as a woman's name citing that it was a possible mans name but could not be supported for use by a woman in the time frame. As for it being 'too grand' that's like dismissing a name because it is too cool. What I have found says it is a possible name for the time, and I like the elegance of single kanji names. If it is not to have a really cool name, why register a name at all. And if obi wan is not a possible by name, I need to find another, and Adana, from what I have read accompany the given name and are never used on their own, exactly like the 'Ivan the red' example.
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Post by solveig on Jan 26, 2015 22:03:11 GMT -5
Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! regarding one kanji names, warring states period (1450-1605ish) is a time when you would most likely find a one kanji name. What evidence do you have for this? As I recall, you are the one who wants to be an ashigaru and also specifically does not want to follow the documentable naming patterns for members of the kuge and buke. As such, there might indeed be names which are above one's station. What documentation do you have for this? That is not what a Japanese dictionary appears to say about adana. The dictionary says that it is a substitute name. So, where are you getting this?
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Post by Please Delete on Jan 26, 2015 22:30:13 GMT -5
Yes. That was my Laurel's site, that I currently maintain. So, you can find "Shigenobu", but I'm not sure where you are finding "Shi + Nobu" or "Shino + bu" to make a male name. I went looking through my name sources to see if I could find anything, with no luck. Regardless, the College will want some evidence of its use or of the use of something similar. There are single character names, but I'm not sure how it would be read. As mentioned, I can't find the kanji "忍" in any name context. You will need to find it, or find what you want, and document it to period. I can't help you--I've checked through several sources and I haven't found it, yet. You don't need an adana. In fact, if you are a samurai or kuge, you probably wouldn't have one. Ideally, a samurai name would include a Family Name + Common Name + Famous Name. You could put together a name for a commoner, or otherwise, but what is most important to you? It sounds like "Shinobu" is very important, and I can't help you there. You might find it, but I haven't been able to. If you are stuck on it, then good luck--I hope you can find a name you like! -Ii
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Post by hiroantagonist on Jan 27, 2015 8:51:40 GMT -5
I may have done this all wrong. I matched from different lists, almost comparable elements. What I was taking as possible was : Shin meaning new from the adjective addon list for birth order, and Nobu, meaning faith. I just figured if an element ended with the same element the next started they could be combined, dropping the redundancy, but that mint be very wrong in japanese. Also, for combining from different categories, I know that the lists there are popular or likely elements, not a complete list and I figured it was ok to reach a little. I would not even know where to start for a larger list or comprehensive guide on what can and can not be combined. Perhaps that book that was mentioned earlyer, but I do not have access to that. And for laurel, as far as I know, they just want proof that it is a possible name phonetically as they only register in Romanji.
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Post by solveig on Jan 27, 2015 9:31:05 GMT -5
Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Shin meaning new from the adjective addon list for birth order, and Nobu, meaning faith. The hidden problem is that SHIN is an onyomi (Sino-Japanese reading) and nobu is a kunyomi (native Japanese reading). When constructing a two kanji nanori (what Ii dono is calling a "famous name") you need to use kunyomi readings. Further, Japanese does not typically drop mora (syllables). The N in SHIN counts as a mora. That is, SHIN 新 takes two time units to pronounce correctly. SHI-N. One should not be combining adjectival prefixes for birth order yobina with nanori deutrothemes (endings).
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Post by Please Delete on Jan 27, 2015 22:50:13 GMT -5
Solveig is right about the On'yomi, Kun'yomi readings. "Shin'nobu" would most likely end up as "Shinshin" or "Aranobu".
While Laurel won't care about which kanji you write it with, that is a key part of the documentation to show that the name is probable. Meaning *is* important in registration, but it doesn't count for conflict checking. E.g. I could have Oda Toshiyasu spelled three different ways. I would need to show one of those ways to register it, but after that, nobody could use another set of kanji to also register "Oda Toshiyasu". Does that make sense? FYI, there are some names that were passed in much earlier years of the SCA that won't pass today. "Nissan Maxima" is an example.
So, I'm trying to think of some names you can use that might fit into your desires. If you want a name with a Star Wars reference, you can do "Yoda" as a surname. I'm trying to think of others... "Obiwan" doesn't quite seem to work, and neither does "Anakin", that I can find. "Han" has a lot of kanji that would work (with on'yomi), but I'm not sure that it works as a single character. "Chu'i" could be a religious name, with some finesse, but I can't think of whta it would be. "Skywalker" might be very loosely "Amayuki", but I'm not sure it would work--I'd have to look, given that I'm not sure about "Ama".
FYI, this is what we call "stunt documentation". It is *much* easier to document actual historic names. But if you want a particular sound or meaning, without regard to actual historic practice, it takes some bending and contortions to get there.
-Ii
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Post by hiroantagonist on Jan 28, 2015 8:39:45 GMT -5
Hehe, shinshin just sounds silly. Thank you again for the benefit of your knowledge again, both of you. I am starting to realize the things I at first thought were clever, just won't cut the mustard in the SCA. But that is where SCA is deferent than larp. Like, I have enlisted my province level heralds to help me design a device that would look good on a back flag with my red on black armor, but it came to light that I can not put "red wing black bird, proper" on a device because it is not a documented European bird. It is a local bird and I could grab a court herald, March him down to any wetland in Avacal, point out a red wing black bird and say "see that? Draw that!" I do plan on playing on the 'creative' side of creative anachronism like being a samurai kitted out with a manubalista (another project of mine I need to finish some day) but when it comes to heraldry, do it right or don't even bother. As to a name, the original point of this thread? Tbc
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Post by hiroantagonist on Jan 28, 2015 13:23:37 GMT -5
Ok, so, a name. What I realy liked about the name obiwan shinobu who's the cadence, meaning three and three. This is in contrast to the fours that come with most two kanji name constructions. I realy like the idea of an Adana rather than surname or origin name or job related description, because, to me, it speaks to my persona having a new identity as he sets out on the Warriors path, not being 'that guy from that village or that guy, son of a rice farmer' A three piece name could be very cool, if it were Adana, given name, famous name, and each part having three beats. Does that work? As to name elements, I like ken shin nobu Han and Bo I don't know what else, I like kanji containing elements of tree/forest sword warrior and heart. And for over all meaning I would like something about self sufficient, self reliant, stubborn, hard to kill, and maybe something about learning, seeking a path, or enlightenment. In the meaning is where something to do with jedi could be referenced, drawing parallels between bushido and the jedi teachings maybe. I hope that is enough to give you a starting point or you can point me in a good direction form here. Thank you
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Post by solveig on Jan 28, 2015 16:59:46 GMT -5
Ok, so, a name. What I realy liked about the name obiwan shinobu who's the cadence, meaning three and three. This is in contrast to the fours that come with most two kanji name constructions. How about a nice single kanji 3 mora family name like 林 Hayashi. This is an extant family name with a current population of about 560000. As a samurai you would be given a family name. Adana really are not substitutes for family names. No. The pattern is <family name><yobina><nanori> that is the sort of name that male warriors had. Adana are not slotted as elements of complete names. They are substitutes for names. They are most particularly not substitutes for having a family name. KAN, SHIN, HAN, and BO are all "onyomi" readings and would pretty much only appear as either 1) a prefix for a birth order yobina or 2) elements of a Buddhist name in religion. nobu is a kunyomi reading and could be part of a nanori such as Nobuyuki. Houmyou (names in religion) can be slotted in addition to a full name, but generally signify that one has retired from life. I really do not see this as being part of what you are trying to do. However, there is a table of historical houmyou at: www.demoivre.org/Japan/Houmyou.pdf
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