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Post by Kozure Okami on Feb 4, 2015 7:54:31 GMT -5
After having read in Effingham-sensei's kozane-chapter that many armours in the latter part of the 16th century featured a do of iyo zane combined with dangly bits of hon kozane, I had decided that I wanted to do that. But right now the question hit me: the lacing is to be sugake odoshi style - but how do I do this on hon kozane? Would I need to combine scales without ALL of the odoshi holes - menashi ("eyeless") zane would not be enough, so to speak - with the conventional hon kozane? Or do I cover the single boards of scales in leather and punch only the wholes I need, just like with iyo zane...? |
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Post by Kurodachi no Mykaru on Feb 4, 2015 8:42:19 GMT -5
The hon kozane are laced kebiki. The iyo zane laced sugake.
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Post by Kozure Okami on Feb 5, 2015 4:42:17 GMT -5
So the answer is that simple after all...
I wonder, did Effingham-sensei say so somehwere on his website? I'm pretty certain he did not mention it in the Odoshi chapter.
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Post by Kurodachi no Mykaru on Feb 5, 2015 10:41:22 GMT -5
Eff may or may not have. Sengokudaimyo is the best resource in English. That doesn't mean it is the sum total of knowledge on Japanese armour or even all that Eff knew. Ii is trying to repair damage that Eff never finished from the crash of '04. Iyozane dou with kiritsuke-kozane gessan are fairly common (though not as common as matched iyozane gessan).
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Post by Kozure Okami on Feb 6, 2015 4:29:07 GMT -5
Sure enough. I did not mean to imply that only because Effingham-sensei may not have written it, I would not believe it. Also, if it sounded like I didn't trust your knowledge, then I'm sorry. I had just been wondering if I had missed that bit of information while going through the website. So yes, thank you for clearing that up  About the matched iyo zane gesssan (by the way, is ther a difference between geesan and kusazuri?), as long as I don't want to make retainer armour, the yurugi ito needs to be kebiki odoshi. But in this case, I DO open more holes in the iyo zane, rather than using hon or kiritsuke kozane, don't I? |
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Post by Kurodachi no Mykaru on Feb 6, 2015 8:47:59 GMT -5
That's correct the yurugi ito needs the kebiki lace (usually). I've seen hon iyozane dou and gessan with sugake yurugi ito that weren't low end, but they don't look right. Tone doesn't come across in posting and no I didn't think you were doubting me. Eff was giant whose shoulders we're standing on. It doesn't mean we don't push forward with his work rather than making Sengokudaimyo canon. |
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Post by Kozure Okami on Feb 6, 2015 11:35:36 GMT -5
My thoughts exactly, sugake yurugi somehow looks skimpy to me... That's true. And you're definitley right about pushing forward, especially in those areas that are uncovered by the site. For example, for the last two days I've been thinking about this question: how to divide the kusazuri across the waistline of a sakura haramaki do? As evenly as possible, that's obvious. Many do seem to have 3 in the front and 4 in the back, which works just fine with ni-mai do. But I'm thinking that in a sakura do, the yurugi ito would have to go over a hinge, which seems like a problem to me. The alternative would be to move the hinges more towards the front or the back, away from the armpits - which I am reluctant to do, as it influences the shape of the wakiita... Kurodachi-dono, I see you have quite the experience in armour-making. What are your thoughts about this matter? Edit: funny enough, today I found the same answer to my initial question just again. I was reading in Efingham-Sensei's book The Samurai and on page 51, there's this paragraph where it says: "... on conventional scale armour, sugake-odoshi looked awful. Only on the wider style of scale called iyo-zane was sparse lacing ever popular." So, if Kurodachi-dono hadn't answered my question already, I would've known now |
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Post by Kozure Okami on Feb 9, 2015 5:48:41 GMT -5
Update: Kurodachi-Dono: I found this old thread (like, REALLY old) just now where you answered basically the same question already: the yurugi ito is not supposed to overlap a hinge. Unfortunately, I don't exactly get what you mean by "that is more lacing tweak than size tweak" - it is clear that instead of playing around with the kusazuri width, I do a trick on the lacing, but what kind of trick would that be? |
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Post by Kurodachi no Mykaru on Feb 10, 2015 8:46:58 GMT -5
The total length of the *bottom* lames should be equal to the circumference at the widest point. The top lames *should* but may not equal the circumference at the point the yurugi ito is laced to the dou. Cheating may be necessary for the lacing to not overlap the hinge. Cheating is here: www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/graphics/05graphs/kebikiUp.jpg |
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Post by Kozure Okami on Feb 10, 2015 11:44:03 GMT -5
Aah yes, right! I had not realized that the cheating pattern can be applied to the yurugi ito as well, but of course it makes perfect sense. Thanks a bunch! Now I can finally get started on the nagagawa section of my posterboard mockup |
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