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Post by Taira no Yuri on Feb 1, 2016 12:28:11 GMT -5
Greetings, I have a lot of questions and I'm not very good at official introductions so please forgive me for diving right in! I am returning to the SCA after a long hiatus and have decided that I would wear male garb for outdoor and fighting events and more traditional female garb for indoor events. This post is specifically about male garb. Right now I am making a simple Hitatare similar to that seen here: www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/5.htmAs it stands I have the Hitatare and its accompanying Hakama (sadly without the white belt... YET!) Now I have gotten most of my information from the museum web sight and www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/garb.ch01.html#hou but I'm having a hard time drawing a full picture in my mind of what the end product is to look like. So far I have a white Kosode, and the Hitatare set itself but it seems there is another layer between those two. Upon digging deeper I have seen both a Hitoe and Juban mentioned and it seems as though I can see the Hitoe in the Daimon picture from the museum but not in the Hitatare picture from the same sight. So I suppose my question boils down to this, what exactly is that third layer and is it something that would be worn with both the everyday Hitatare or just with the formal Daimon? I play in very early Kamakura time so most of the middle to late information doesn't really apply to what I am going for.
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Feb 1, 2016 13:27:54 GMT -5
I may defer to Ii Saburou Katsumori on this one as he actually wears this stuff. It's my understanding that the juban is the "undershirt" layer. A hitoe is an unlined garment with wide sleeves and I don't *think" that's worn under hitatare. Most likely, it would be a kosode instead. That would be your middle layer, with the juban worn next to the skin.
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Post by Please Delete on Feb 1, 2016 23:11:48 GMT -5
I'm actually in the middle of updating the male garments and outfits, and I'll be giving a class on this at Atlantian University next weekend. On the hitatare kamishimo, the basic requirement is one or more kosode, hakama, and hitatare. The term " juban" actually comes from the Portuguese word "gibão", and was introduced in the 16th century, where it seems to have referred to a narrow sleeved garment, similar to a "tsubosode" style kosode. The thing is, this is just the latest in a series of asetori, or kazami, type garments, which were generally white linen and meant to absorb the sweat before it reached the garments on top. They were often used in the summer, and not always needed. Asetori garments include fuzan, kazami, katabira, kosode, and juban. Depending on the period and the formality, you might use different garments underneath it all (well, the fuzan seems to be Nara period, so probably not that, though a form of hitatare seems to have existed back then in the lower classes, with much more narrow sleeves). In the end; for the 16th century, go with a juban. Before that, use kosode or katabira (like a hitoe, but made of linen, except at the sleeve-ends and collar, where it can be seen). As for the "daimon" v. "hitatare"--these garments are of similar shape, but different outfits, with different levels of formality. I think that is what you are seeing.
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Post by Taira no Yuri on Feb 2, 2016 10:15:16 GMT -5
Thank you both very much for your answers and conformations!
So just to clarify for an everyday wear Hitatare in early Kamakura all I need is a Kosode or two, the Hitatare coat and the Hitatare no Hakama. The Daimon is, as I assumed, cut the same but is more formal. I think the confusion was with the obvious white interior in the Daimon that is not present in the Hitatare pictures and the fact that the Hitatare and Daimon where worn for such a long period that separating their later elements from their early ones is the challenge.
I have finished putting together my Hitatare and Hitatare no Hakama, over all I am very happy with the top but not so much with the bottom. I used 15” panels, 3 per leg (a ghost seam making the front 30” look like two panels sewn together) but the “side holes” as I call them, also known as “doorknob catchers” seem far too low at only a few inches above the knee and the inseam seems far to high.
I'm not sure if some of this is do to the fact that I am neither Japanese nor a man. I feel that if I make a few small adjustments on my next attempt it may turn out better, such as using larger panels for the Hakama to make up for feminine hips. I wonder if something like this would have been done since the panel widths vary a little in size if smaller widths and larger widths would have been mixed, not in the same piece but in the same ensemble? I suppose for practical SCA playing purposes it doesn't mater much but I like to know the truth wherever possible.
Once again thank you for all of your help so far in my search for knowledge.
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Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Feb 2, 2016 11:17:08 GMT -5
The crotch gusset needs to be really low. I tend to set mine just above my knee so things hang correctly.
I like plenty of "coverage" at the waist/hips, so I tend to pleat accordingly.
You may have to pin and play until you find the fit you like.
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Post by Please Delete on Feb 2, 2016 22:40:44 GMT -5
Saionji Shonagon is correct. Check out the hakama pattern on Sengoku Daimyo. You'll see that the crotch is cut down to just about the knee level. -Ii
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