|
Yari
Jun 19, 2005 22:54:31 GMT -5
Post by yukimura on Jun 19, 2005 22:54:31 GMT -5
I am very semi new to martial weaponery. I am a big fan of poleweapons. I perfer them over a sword on many occassions. I was wondering if anyone knows where I might get information on Yari technique or have personal experiences or tips for a beginner? Anything would be helpful.
|
|
Saionji Shonagon
New Member
One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
|
Yari
Jun 20, 2005 0:06:09 GMT -5
Post by Saionji Shonagon on Jun 20, 2005 0:06:09 GMT -5
Our Esteemed Moderator Otagiri-dono, is partial to this weapons form and no doubt will have information to offer. In the meantime, you can visit the threads on Hozoin Yari in the "Buki" board and "Ichiban no Yari" in the "Heiho" board.
Wait! I'm supposed to be decorative and not care ;Dhow you buke kill each other off as long as the Son of Heaven is kept safe.
;D
|
|
|
Yari
Jun 20, 2005 5:45:09 GMT -5
Post by Please Delete on Jun 20, 2005 5:45:09 GMT -5
You know, I was thinking about this recently. Nakamura Ryu has a series of six yari kata--forms apparently used to teach soldiers how to use a bayonet as well. Interestingly, in three of them, the sword wins. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone in the US is teaching them and I worry that they may one day be lost.
But anyway, the reason I was thinking of them was that in the Woods Battle on Saturday at Stierbach's Baronial Birthday event there were two spears going up against us, and the polearm I was using often was converted to spear use. Here's what struck me (no pun intended):
1) Spear is very similar to fencing. You have a long straight weapon designed to thrust and hit with the tip. Circular parries work very nicely--I kept one guy tied up with just a simple circular motion. Had I had two hands and more training, I probably could have converted many of those into a decent counterthrust. One of the things I would say here is that do not let an enemy 'stick' his weapon to your spear. He will generally have the advantage over you.
2) Look for holes and get good at hitting them. This is almost like billiards--you are trying to slide through a small space. I recall one time I was relying on the shieldmen to protect me and they left just enough of a gap for the spear to come in and get me. Head shots over shields are good.
3) Your range is much greater than with sword, or even polearm. With those two weapons, against a group lined up in front of you, you have good range to hit three moderately spaced fighters in front of you. With a spear you generally get another two on either end. Thus, when attacking against a spear, you need to be able to spread out more, as well.
4) Mobility is key. The spearman must be able to keep 'maai'--range--just like any other fighter. Unfortunately, in 'chika-no-maai', or close range, you are going to have a harder time defending and striking, since we can't use the haft of the weapon to attack or sweep the feet (both nice, legitimate targets in the real world). Fighters will try to rush you. The most common defense I've seen is to run backwards. The best defense I've seen is to move to the side. Usually you aren't going to be able to run backwards faster than they can move forwards, but if you get off to the side, they need to turn to face you. In the woods, or regular battle, this can mean interposing obstacles between you and them, including other fighters and trees. Plus, you can move off to a side where they are more open to attack.
Just some brief thoughts.
-Ii
|
|
|
Yari
Jun 20, 2005 7:40:14 GMT -5
Post by Kitadatedenka on Jun 20, 2005 7:40:14 GMT -5
Having come back from Lilies, where I used spear nearly exclusively: 1) Spear is very similar to fencing. You have a long straight weapon designed to thrust and hit with the tip. Circular parries work very nicely--I kept one guy tied up with just a simple circular motion. Had I had two hands and more training, I probably could have converted many of those into a decent counterthrust. Beats work as well, and generally keep one in line. Check out the 'Brannos-ryu' stuff (search for "Brannos spear' and go from there). The disadvantage to circular motion is that the length of the weapon makes it more difficult. Not disparaging the technique, just pointing that out. I let them do it all the time. But I've developed a 'feel' for engagement (in the fencing sense). And I do it to them. Forte against foible and all that. A 3" tip fits through a 2" hole. Actually, I have about a 16' range with a 9' spear. At Lilies, because much of the fighting was in open order, I could hit the third guy down the line on either side. Your effective spread depends heavily on how close your buddies are on either side of you. Again, Brannos-ryu's concept of the '3 foot box' only really works when your buddies are that close to you. Last week, I had a lot of people tell me that they were sure I was out of range, only to have me tap their face off some weird angle. It shouldn't be necessary to move to the side, unless you get caught in the open. Your buddies should be close enough that a single step back is good enough. That takes you out of their range, and makes it that much easier for one on your side to kill the charging opponent. Learn to bind up the enemy with your spear when he charges, and learn to trust the other members of your side to do the killing at that point. However, the points are valid if you're alone. Then again, Raito's First Rule Of Melee is: If you're alone, you're dead.
|
|
|
Yari
Jun 20, 2005 11:57:36 GMT -5
Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Jun 20, 2005 11:57:36 GMT -5
...Nakamura Ryu has a series of six yari kata...Unfortunately, I don't think anyone in the US is teaching them and I worry that they may one day be lost... If you have the Nakamura ryu information or can get it I would very much like to practice it with you this week. They can, but many people have a habit of extending themselves with the spear to extreme range, as Raito points out a good beat manuver (quickly slapping their spear to the ground) realy screws them up and leaves them open for a good couple of seconds as they recover. It is simply more efficent to use the beat method. Before I retired the field, did you notice I was armed and holding off 2 spearmen and one of the sword and shield guys until you all came racing back from res-point? I'll show you some of the one handed tricks. Also because of SCA combat conventions they fall into the category of polearm, not spear. (strikes involved) As Raito said, it is an advantage to them if you have not practiced. Personally I like spear on spear, when they choose to play sticky shaft, I especially like the look on their face when you thrust them at point blank range after you ran up their shaft. Well have to set up the ball on a string for you, and also I will show you some ways to open up the shields for that sneaky shot. I should have worked with you with my naginata, what do you think all those little strategically placed bands are for, decoration? True, but many spear weilders forget that a spear can be as nasty brutish and short as a dagger. It takes alot of practice though. Yes and no, with any fight, range is not (should not) be the issue, the issue is learning to control your opponent. By properly learning this, you will be able to control the timing, of his attacks, and the range he thinks he is safe at (which ideally is 2 feet closer than what your effective range is at) However one must also learn to deal with the closing fighter, nothing suprises a sword and shield guy more than a spearman who comes up inside his defense and plants him a solid blow as he goes back for the wrapshot. If done correctly in a melee a lone spearman who closes and takes out a front rank shield up close, is going to break the line and cause a huge mess. True it is much more difficult and strenuous to fight up close (especially one handed) with spear. And while you may not strike, nor with a proper SCA spear use the off end (no buttspike) a spear is also a 9 foot tall tate (shield), it is just very narrow. Also as Loric was talking to me about, there is nothing aganist fulcruming your opponent if he walks into your spear. If you have that option it can be effective, moreso if you know how to choke up very qucikly and deliver a thrust as they start to pass and turn. Kuji is very good with this manuver. We definantly need to work on this stuff this week while it is fresh in our minds. (Anyone in the area on the board is also welcome to come)
|
|
|
Yari
Jun 20, 2005 12:26:00 GMT -5
Post by Hiroda Ujio on Jun 20, 2005 12:26:00 GMT -5
Do yourself a favor and get a flip mace. Is it period for us, no, but it will save you the problem of dealing with charging shields. You should also realize that all of this in close talk is great when you only have to deal with one shieldman, any more than that and mobility IS your best friend.
|
|
|
Yari
Jun 20, 2005 13:20:37 GMT -5
Post by Kitadatedenka on Jun 20, 2005 13:20:37 GMT -5
I prefer, when trying to kill the guy I'm using a beat against, to beat to the side (either, depending on where he is). I use it to open a line while taking it myself. I will most likely beat to the ground when I can catch multiple spears, or if I'm not well acquainted with my partners.
The ball on a string works OK, but I've found that unless you rig it like a speed ball, it bounces around a bit much to use for certain drills, like speed drills. It also wants to roll off the end of the tip, and I like a more certain impact. But it is useful. For most, I prefer spots marked on a pell, or better, a (concrete) wall. Hit each spot in order, as fast as you can, for as long as you can. Then change the order. Then add some 'wooden man' bits where you can't just shoot straight, like putting a chair between you and the target. Then change that all up by adding to the pattern your own movement.
Then get a prtner. Hit at the same spots without getting in each other's way. Then add to that by saying that whenever one of you hits the red spot, the other has to hit the blue.
Then do roundabouts. That's where you both hit at the same spot, alternately. But the twist is that each of you is stepping around the same small circle, so that sometimes you're shooting over him, sometimes under. Than add to that by adding more targets.
See how may full thrusts you can get off in a minute. To make it fair, do it against 2 targets, with a post in between, so that you have to come back around the post between thrusts.
Damn, I could spend all day poking about with a spear.
(And that's just the easy drills).
|
|
|
Yari
Jun 20, 2005 15:10:17 GMT -5
Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Jun 20, 2005 15:10:17 GMT -5
Do yourself a favor and get a flip mace. Is it period for us, no, but it will save you the problem of dealing with charging shields. You should also realize that all of this in close talk is great when you only have to deal with one shieldman, any more than that and mobility IS your best friend. Maybe I know it by something else, but I am not sure what a flip mace is Oh, I like multiple shieldmen, they tend to get in each others way something magnificent when dealing with me. Except for those that are realy skilled veterans, people realy just don't expect a lone spear to stand their ground or worse, press back.
|
|
|
Yari
Jun 20, 2005 15:20:07 GMT -5
Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Jun 20, 2005 15:20:07 GMT -5
I prefer, when trying to kill the guy I'm using a beat against, to beat to the side (either, depending on where he is). I use it to open a line while taking it myself. I will most likely beat to the ground when I can catch multiple spears, or if I'm not well acquainted with my partners. I'll have to try that more often, it makes sense.I've developed the habit of beating weapons down and got stuck in a general rut with it, I need to change it up, and keep other options open. Excellent Suggestions, Thank you!
|
|
|
Yari
Jun 20, 2005 15:35:32 GMT -5
Post by Kitadatedenka on Jun 20, 2005 15:35:32 GMT -5
I swear, sometimes I think you Kuro-gatsu are all Ainu or something! ;D A flip mace is a short mace tethered to the hand such that you can 'flip' it up into your hand when necessary.
Really, look up Brannos's stuff. It's internally consistent, though it does rely on closely spaced spearmen. The basics are simple:
Square up your stance. When thrusting, end with supinated hand. To block weapon side, push out just a bit with the shaft. To block open side, pull in your crouch, and pull on the shaft. One foot in the box at all times.
That's really about it.
|
|
|
Yari
Jun 20, 2005 16:26:47 GMT -5
Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Jun 20, 2005 16:26:47 GMT -5
You know, I was thinking about this recently. Nakamura Ryu has a series of six yari kata--forms apparently used to teach soldiers how to use a bayonet as well. Interestingly, in three of them, the sword wins. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone in the US is teaching them and I worry that they may one day be lost. Are these six yari katas the same as jukendo forms? As developed in the Toyama iado/battoudo ryu? In which case I don't understand your fear that they will become lost forms...
|
|
|
Yari
Jun 20, 2005 16:31:03 GMT -5
Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Jun 20, 2005 16:31:03 GMT -5
I am very semi new to martial weaponery. I am a big fan of poleweapons. I perfer them over a sword on many occassions. I was wondering if anyone knows where I might get information on Yari technique or have personal experiences or tips for a beginner? Anything would be helpful. Welcome Yukimura-dono! For thrusting practice, I have built a 4x4 grid of rings that looks something like this... O-O-O-O | | | | O-O-O-O | | | | O-O-O-O | | | | O-O-O-O
The rings are just cut from disposable plastic drinking cups and are suspended with string from a PVC frame. I used it in my hotel room this winter. The cups are not large enough for an SCA legal spear (I just used a pole), but you could easily design something similar for use with an SCA legal spear.
|
|
|
Yari
Jun 20, 2005 16:37:57 GMT -5
Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Jun 20, 2005 16:37:57 GMT -5
|
|
|
Yari
Jun 20, 2005 16:40:00 GMT -5
Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Jun 20, 2005 16:40:00 GMT -5
I prefer, when trying to kill the guy I'm using a beat against, to beat to the side (either, depending on where he is). I use it to open a line while taking it myself. I will most likely beat to the ground when I can catch multiple spears, or if I'm not well acquainted with my partners. I'll have to try that more often, it makes sense.I've developed the habit of beating weapons down and got stuck in a general rut with it, I need to change it up, and keep other options open. One of the things to look for in a beat to the side is the tendancy for your opponent to over-correct, creating an even bigger opening than the original beat.
|
|
|
Yari
Jun 20, 2005 17:18:58 GMT -5
Post by Please Delete on Jun 20, 2005 17:18:58 GMT -5
I don't know if the forms are the 6 jukendo forms or not. I'd love more detail. I just know that Nakamura Sensei stopped teaching them--the story as I understand it has to do with an accident that happened when demonstrating, where someone got seriously injured, and he just didn't touch them again.
Since then, I have heard they are not being taught as much. But if it is part of the overall Toyama Ryu curriculum, that is wonderful to hear.
-Ii
|
|