Linking armour style to period

[Sakurai Takamori]

Am desperately trying not to flail about with my posts but I have hit a problem.

Am in the midst of enormous bout of reading/research and am still hestitant to tie my new persona to a particular period (which is also delaying the whole name and garb thing)

I've read and re-read the Sengoku site again and again and am still puzzling things out.

I'm leaning towards mogami do (most likely ni-mai mogami do) ((I think))

But how does that limit me time-wise?
I know that oyoroi is for the earlier periods, but how early does mogami do turn up?
Can I make it and wear it and be a persona within the kamakura period? Or must I push later into Muromachi? Momoyama? Edo even?

This is a critical question because if I build the armour I want will that preclude the earlier period I'm interested in?

Help....brain...is...melting.

veejay

[AJBryant]

I'm leaning towards mogami do (most likely ni-mai mogami do) ((I think))

Well, a minor point: A mogami do is a five sectional do of lames laced in sugake odoshi. If it's only two sections (a clamshell, or ni-mai do), then it's not a mogami do. Just a ni-mai do laced in sugake odoshi.

But how does that limit me time-wise?

All the solid lame armours put you in the latter half of the sixteenth century.


Effingham

[Otagiri Tatsuzou]

I commend your desire to remain true to a specific period.

But in the SCA where "samurai" carry shields and fight in spangenhelms with basket-hilted swords... you don't need to sweat the difference between two fairly accurate Japanese suits even if they don't really fit your period.

That said ... you can wear various versions of the do-maru in almost any period. I think it first showed in the twelfth-thirteenth century and was still used in the sixteenth century. My *guess* is that the mogami-do is a fifteenth century item first used in lower ranks and then moving up in rank in the sixteenth.

[Otagiri Tatsuzou]

admin said:

My *guess* is that the mogami-do is a fifteenth century item first used in lower ranks and then moving up in rank in the sixteenth.

All the solid lame armours put you in the latter half of the sixteenth century.

[Takeda Sanjuichiro]

admin said:

I commend your desire to remain true to a specific period.

But in the SCA where "samurai" carry shields and fight in spangenhelms with basket-hilted swords... you don't need to sweat the difference between two fairly accurate Japanese suits even if they don't really fit your period...

I disagree slightly Otagiri, I feel we (and realy I mean me) need to sweat the small stuff. So much of the SCA generalizes Japan, (Some even despise it, but that is a different argument.) that every Japanese persona and item gets lumped into a category of "imported junk" So I am trying to better my belongings, my armor, my actions as I can to try to be accurate to my time period, seek to strive to encourage others to do the same, and hopefuly increase both my knowledge, and hopefuly at least one other person's in a benifical way.

I see the historical re-enactment crowd who specialize in late 14th-late 16th century tournaments and armor, and am stunned by their gear, clothing, and even actions. I someday hope to emulate the positive aspects of their precedent, but for Japanese.

Over the weekend I was at Alles Faire in the East Kingdom visiting some friends. One of them was holding a "Round Table - in persona discussion" sadly only three of us attended, but we were all Japanese persona, and all from the latter Sengoku-jidai. It was great fun, and very inspiring to have spent 30-45 minutes truly in persona. We found out later that someone did consider dropping in, but was stunned by our discussion and simply enjoyed watching it. I would like to see much more of that in the future.

I would like to see about setting something like this up for Pennsic... Anyone game? What about the idea of a Samurai parade? While technically post period what about maybe trying to pull off an Attendance Procession, or maybe just a demo-parade of a Lord on Campaign with his retainers?

-Takeda

[Please Delete]

I think a Japanese parade is a wonderful idea.

We would need to fill in the armour roles and the things like the unarmoured retainers, attending servants, etc. Hmmmm, that could be something really interesting.
We'd have to coordinate it ahead of time, if we were going to have a proper number of people per armoured fighter.

-Ii

[Please Delete]

veejay said:

But how does that limit me time-wise?

Lot's of other info here, but in the 'how does this limit me time-wise?' my answer is: Not at all.

My recommendation is that any one outfit--martial or otherwise--should be set in a given time and place. However, there is nothing to say you can't bounce back and forth in time just as some people bounce back and forth between cultures (ask Makiwara about her alter-ego Jehanne de Wodeford). This past weekend at Alles Faire, I set up camp and threw on Sengoku-Ii (kataginu kamishimo). The next day I changed into Heian-Ii (kariginu sugata with tate-eboshi). Sunday I was back to Sengoku-Ii. My armour, such as it is, is decidedly late-period.

So don't sweat it--just be sure that whatever you are doing at the moment you are doing right.


-Ii

[Date Saburou Yukiie]

Takeda-dono,

Over the weekend I was at Alles Faire in the East Kingdom visiting some friends.

I am told by my retainer and trusted friend Date no Momochi-dono that he was going to be at "Alles Fair."

Did you by any chance get to meet him? I know he would be very happy to meet and greet anyone of the Nippon persuasion in the area.
Date

[Date Saburou Yukiie]

Ii-dono,

I think a Japanese parade is a wonderful idea.

You know that every year at Pennsic we at the Yama Kaminari hold a fertility festival. We have never been exclusive in this action, and I am sure that if people showed up on the right day at the right time, asked nicely, and were accoutred and dressed appropriately - I am sure we would allow them to join in the procession. The more Japanese persona the better, I think. More banners, more armor as needed (though the fertility fest is not usually an armored activity) the more drums, conch shells, cymbals and drums...(Oh...did I mention drums and conch shells?) the better!!!
Of course, we do the parade in fundoshi and spf 8-gojillian sunscreen, but hey...if one cannot loose ones attachment to vanity in such an occasion, then where can one attain enlightenment?
Date

[Sakurai Takamori]

My thanks to you all
(and your observations will be added to the design parameters Effingham-dono)

It's reassuring to get all the 'don't sweat it' advice as, alas, my armouring skills are such that I may well end up with a do that's a wee bit later than my chosen period.

That being said I also agree with those who do want to sweat the details....as this is my second time around creating a persona from scratch (albeit 15 odd years later) I want this one to be right...that's part of the reason I selected a Japanese persona...so many periods to choose from each with appropriate armour, garb, manners etc.....a truly rich pallette

My fascination and enjoyment at delving deeper into the pure research end of it reminds me of the reason I joined the SCA in the first place - a love of history made real.

again kudos to this list and all who dwell upon it for sharing their own experiences in doing Japan's history justice within the society.

veejay

[Takeda Sanjuichiro]

datesaburouyukiie said:

...Did you by any chance get to meet him? ...

I belive I did see him and his family, if he was wearing the Trademark Yama-kaminari pattern eboshi but at the time I was running an errand for my lady so I did not get to talk with him at the time, and when I had a chance I could not find him again. I would have loved to speak with him. Feel free to pass on my contact information to him.

FYI the next major event I'll be attending is Stierbach Baronial Birthday in Atlantia (just south of Washington D.C. ((Woods battle with combat archery!!!!! ^{shameless plug})) I'm hoping it will draw some of you all out of the woodwork before pennsic.

-Takeda

[Takeda Sanjuichiro]

datesaburouyukiie said:

...You know that every year at Pennsic we at the Yama Kaminari hold a fertility festival...

Yes, it is great too! but I was thinking something with a bit more clothing, not for modesty's sake, but there is getting to be some outstanding clothing and armor, and I thought it would be a neat sight to see a huge procession like we see in the screens and in art so the populace of the Society can realy see the number of dedicated people there is getting to be in the Japanese community.

[Saionji Shonagon]

Over the weekend I was at Alles Faire in the East Kingdom visiting some friends. One of them was holding a "Round Table - in persona discussion" sadly only three of us attended, but we were all Japanese persona, and all from the latter Sengoku-jidai.

And then there was the scene with the Japanese/Jacobean tea party..... ;->

Makiwara

[Please Delete]

takedasanjuichiro said:

Yes, it is great too! but I was thinking something with a bit more clothing, not for modesty's sake, but there is getting to be some outstanding clothing and armor, and I thought it would be a neat sight to see a huge procession like we see in the screens and in art so the populace of the Society can realy see the number of dedicated people there is getting to be in the Japanese community.

Agreed. The fertility festival is a grand time, but I would think it just about screams for fundoshi I think it would be neat to see a progression of people with things like the servants carrying the boxes, the lord walking in the middle--perhaps in a dobuku, or even in a palanquin (heck, you could have an empty one where the lord would be, if no lord is handy), surrounded by men in armour and people carrying his banners, perhaps his ladies with him, with their own ladies in waiting. Lots of thoughts. Besides more parades = more exposure, ne?


-Ii

[Takeda Sanjuichiro]

makiwara said:

And then there was the scene with the Japanese/Jacobean tea party..... ;->

I wish there was pictures, especially in front of the Big Blue Yurt... (wonder how many pages of the thread would go to if that pic was posted on Armor archive )

It was such a pleasure meeting you this past weekend, and having the time to sit for a bit and visit, I hope we have the opportunity to do so again soon in person; I know my lady would be delighted to talk more with you well.