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Post by Miyamoto Takezo on Apr 20, 2011 2:04:25 GMT -5
Greetings all! I am all set to make my first armour kit. Barring the fact that it's not period, not a real person in history, and in "The Last Samurai" which should've omitted Tom Cruise completely, and just had been a historical movie based on the Seinan Wars, with Ken Watanabe as Saigo Takamori, I really REALLY REALLY like Ujio's fish scale armour in the film! If I could make it almost the same, except with a simpler, SCA appropriate kabuto of course and not the "heavy horny" one. Ahem.   So, I have questions. First: Is this style of armour period for Japan? I know the movie is Meiji era but was there a in period version? There were plenty of other Eastern Cultures that had scale armour in period, what about Japan? Second: Leather or steel? I have both. Here's a pic of some Japanese scale armour (not sure if it's pre Edo however) and it looks to be lacquered leather that has been shaped and domed.  Also, would this kabuto be allowed to go with the fish scale style do? (there's no fish scale armour on Effingham-sensei's site so I dont know what kaubuto is appropriate.)   Finally: How would I go about contsructing this? The most popular European way is to make a canvas under lining in the shape of the cuirass (do in this case) and then stitch and rivet each scale onto it. Help please? Thank you.  |
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Post by worldantiques on Apr 20, 2011 7:24:32 GMT -5
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Post by worldantiques on Apr 20, 2011 7:49:57 GMT -5
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AJBryant
New Member
甲冑師 katchuu-shi
Posts: 1,972
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Post by AJBryant on Apr 20, 2011 18:29:51 GMT -5
Key thing to remember: gyôrin on shikoro and kote were meant to flex, and so were mounted on fabric. Dô were not flexible, and the gyôrin were on solid surfaces.
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Post by Miyamoto Takezo on Apr 21, 2011 1:13:44 GMT -5
worldantiques-san, Thank you so much for taking the time to provide these photos they are a massive help! @effingham-sensei, So for the shikoro and kote I can mount the gyorin on say, canvas? But for the do I need to mount them on something like a hotoke do?
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Post by worldantiques on Apr 21, 2011 2:38:36 GMT -5
Key thing to remember: gyôrin on shikoro and kote were meant to flex, and so were mounted on fabric. Dô were not flexible, and the gyôrin were on solid surfaces. Any idea how they were attached to a solid surface, I cant find any information or pictures. |
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Post by pallidus on Apr 21, 2011 14:36:27 GMT -5
I have made and fought in scale armor. Fought in it for about two years before giving it up. I have to warn you about a couple of things. First- its NOT protective. Scale REALLY hurts when you get hit hard. Its practically worthless against a thrust and little better against a percussive sword shot. Getting a hard thrust in the solar plexus by a pike will end your day. Getting a moderate sword shot in short ribs will do the same. You might as well not be wearing any armor at all. This is because you have a lot of little scales that are only attached at one point and are not laced together. Plates laced together spread the force out, but scales do not. Second- Its hard to make. There is a ton of punching tiny little holes in the metal and then lacing them through a backing - not fun. Also the scales get ripped off pretty easily. Third - its heavy. I'm not one to complain about heavy armor - my current rig weighs 55 pounds. But scale is really heavy with not much protection. If you make the scales thicker to handle the impact, the suit will just be heavier. The cost benefit analysis of this really stinks Fourth- If this is your first suit, and you intent to fight Japanese style with a two handed weapon you are going to get hit.... a LOT. Hard. Scale will make your experience fairly miserable. You will not be mobile because of the weight, and when you get hit its going to hurt. Fifth- its NOT protective. The Japanese did not use scale for a reason. Nor was it very common armor in most other cultures as well for these same reasons. Most ancient peoples went to some form of lamellar, where the scales were tied together on all sides. Wow- that was really long winded! Sorry! I just dont want to see a new fighter have a miserable experience. Taking a long time to make armor and then having it not protect you sucks! Please learn from my mistakes. |
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Post by Miyamoto Takezo on Apr 21, 2011 18:08:44 GMT -5
pallidus-san,Thank you very much for yourt input! I am aware of the weight and lack of protection scale armour provides. For these reasons, I definately want it for my first kit. I know that sounds illogical, insane even, but I want it to be heavy and hurt when I get hit.
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Post by Yamanouchi Eidou on Apr 21, 2011 18:45:20 GMT -5
Takezo dono he,
This seems like a questionable plan. I don't think you'll really get the japanese aesthetic you're hoping for and I think your maintenance requirements will be unreasonably high to keep the armor in passable fighting form. Where all do you live? If you want to find out about scale armor, you might consider talking to another fighter in your area. Baron Math might also have some decent advice.
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Post by Miyamoto Takezo on Apr 21, 2011 20:54:04 GMT -5
Yamanouchi-san,Hmm you provide an interesting point but I'm a little puzzled as to how this katchu isn't asthetically Japanese? In all reality, I just want something a little rougher looking then your average lamellar armour.
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Post by Please Delete on Apr 21, 2011 22:15:39 GMT -5
I think that the issue isn't that this isn't aesthetically Japanese (though it is a weirdness), but rather getting your scales to look like the Japanese scales and maintaining that look in what you create.
My main question: Do we see fish-scale pre-Edo, or is it a post-1600 phenomenon?
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Post by Miyamoto Takezo on Apr 22, 2011 5:05:53 GMT -5
Ii-san,
Yes that was one of my first concerns as well. I've been doing research and thus far have not found any evidence to suggest the scales were pre Edo.
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Post by Yamanouchi Eidou on Apr 22, 2011 12:11:07 GMT -5
Fun fact: the suffix of san is generally also considered to be a post period usage. all the cool kids are using dono instead.
I think the thing that makes it less Japanese is that the lines on the armor itself become a criss cross of diagonals. As a history person and graphic artist I would say that it looks like a Japanese extrapolation or borrowing from a different culture, such as the Chinese. It's kind of like when you see some armor that are clearly peascod breast plates with Japanese acoutrements.
It's hard enough in the SCA to create a good set of Japanese armor that conforms to the rules set. the more obscure and esoteric you get the less recognizable it will be.
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Post by Suzuki Ken'ichi on Apr 22, 2011 12:25:06 GMT -5
Which is accurate, though late-period.
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Post by pallidus on Apr 22, 2011 18:07:50 GMT -5
@ Miyamoto- Ok. Let me just say that you may be unaware of how painful it can be swimming in the "deep end" of the SCA pool. If you plan to be at all competitive and swim there... well... uh... just get good insurance, ok?
A wise man on another list said "Some people believe you right off. Some you can convince. Some have to actually piss on the electric fence and find out for themselves." ;D
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