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Post by tengumoon on Nov 23, 2008 2:52:46 GMT -5
After reading theSengokuDaimyo site (numerous times until I got a reasonable grasp of yoroi - tho the nomenclature sometimes confuses me) and after scouring through the tousando archives , the tanki yoriaku as well as looking at online images of yoroi...
I think I finally have a clue enough to begin planning my first set of Japanese Armour (I will throw in planning pictures as I make them)
I have in mind a Mogami Haramaki Do Still not sure if it will be 3 or 5 sections Still havent yet figured the lacing colour scheme as well as kote and suneate with splints
I plan to use black plastic (unless I can get bright blue) pause for the groans (it was a joke!!!) actually I wonder if I can get the plastic in a more snazzy colour like russet?
the only armourer in Australia who does metal Japanese stuff has a waitlist and I am impatient I like to make stuff and I dont have the workshop or time for metal
for the moment the helmet will have to be a little less Japanese and wrapped with cloth as I plan a yamabushi style personae (to hide the non Japanese hat until I can obtain a kabuto (dreaming of one with tengu menpo or a menpo shaped grill) (excellent idea Saburo-san)
for sake of getting into combat quickly and safely I plan on using my motorcycle armour hidden underneath it all
Question 1: which plastic will be better ABS or HDPE? or is there something else I should be looking for? There is a place nearby that sells HDPE sheet starting at 6mm thickness
Question 2: what thickness of plastic should I go for? I do plan on wearing some padding underneath the armour (purely for personal comfort and protection)
Question 3: will the plastic be malleable enough to make san-mai? or should I stick with go-mai? And what about the stand up edge at the top of the sode?
Question 4: for SCA use, should there be padding added to the back of the armour or should I go for wearing hidden padding under the armouring garb?
Question 5: I have jika tabi - will that be enough for the SCA fighting? (yes I know they have plastic soles but hope to cover them in something interesting and I have no idea where to get waraji sandals in Australia - at least not just repro ones)
(Edited to add just one more question) Question 6: with san-mai or go-mai do, what happens wioth the dsuspension lacing for kusazuri? must the lacing for each kusazuri be all on one section or can it cross over sections and the hinges?
thanks to all for their patience and replies thanks to all those who have posted here in the past - it has been invaluable thanks to Effingham Sensei - hopefully I can actually make something worthy given your impressive instructions
peace and respect
James
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Post by mrcunningham on Nov 23, 2008 10:24:17 GMT -5
Question 4: I don't think you'll need padding on your back, unless Lochac has warfighting where you'll be getting blindsided a LOT.
Question 5: Jika tabi are awesome, and a step up from most footwear in the SCA. I think you'll find that, without the cushion of modern sneakers, your feet hurt a little more from fighting in armour, but the grip and feel on the ground will make up for that.
Also: Good luck with the project!
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Post by dannyinjapan on Nov 23, 2008 13:51:16 GMT -5
ditch the jikatabi. they are not period anyway. you can buy waraji and tabi for not much money these days. keep reading the website and looking at pictures of antique armors until the concepts are clear to you. i wouldnt start spending any money until you feel comfortable that you understand what is going on. when you do, i'd go wih steel. why put all that effort into it and end up with a plastic suit?
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Post by tengumoon on Nov 23, 2008 15:48:37 GMT -5
Thank you Saborou-san, I didnt specifically mean armour upon my back, rather I meant underneath the do itself. (However I have this great piece of motorcycle armour, commonly known as a "turtle-shell" that covers my spine very well) As to Jika tabi, I have been wearing tabi for a while and have no issue with them
Danny, I know jika-tabi are not period, but much more period than my sneakers or my boots!!! I am in Australia and getting hold of tabi and waraji is a serious difficulty, especially ones that I want to wear rather then ones that are just for show on the lounge room wall - my training indoor tabi are handmade by a training partner. As to steel armour, I simply do not have a workshop or the time to give to steel (meaning setting up workshop, getting the tools, learning to work it properly, then making the armour) the only person I can find who does Japanese style steel in Australia is 1000 kilometers away and has a 12 month waiting list (overseas armourers all seem to have a long wait list as well as the problem of the low Australian dollar) If I could find a llocal armourer and make use of their workshop I would but so far responses to my local enquiries have been nill
thank you for your replies peace and respect James
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Post by Katayama Hiromoto on Nov 23, 2008 18:16:25 GMT -5
Question 1: which plastic will be better ABS or HDPE? or is there something else I should be looking for?There is a place nearby that sells HDPE sheet starting at 6mm thickness Might I suggest ABS. From what I've seen of HDPE, it tends to scar easily. That is to say after a time you could very well end up with gouges taken out of the armor you're going to spend so much time working on. Over the past twenty years or so, I've made a number of suits out of ABS and have had very, very few issues at all. And the ones I did have were brought on from poor engineering and not necessarily the plastic itself. A few other reasons I like plastic in general for armor: 1) ABS is very easy to work. You don't need a shop full of expensive tools to work the stuff. A jigsaw, a couple of files, a drill (or even better, drill press) and an electric sander is a good place to start. 2) The stuff is extremely durable so long as you use an appropriate thickness. My current suit, an o-yoroi, is made out of approximately 6mm (3/16 inch) ABS and I have had precisely zero problems with it. 3) Forming ABS can be done right in your own kitchen. Once the parts are cut out, simply pop them in the oven on low (200 degrees F) heat and away you go. You might want to use a cookie sheet or the like to prevent the "b.b.q. stripe" look. Also, place your plastic in the middle of the oven, so it isn't directly over (or under depending on your oven) the heat source. 4) From a purely aesthetic stand point, ABS (IMHO) looks more historically accurate than painted steel, etc. Again, just my opinion. Again, my current suit is 3/16 inch or approximately 6mm. Since you are planning on wearing padding underneath, you might be able to get away with 1/8 in (4 mm?) ABS without any problems. If you intend to heat form the plastic, you should be able to make whatever you want. As far as kanmura-ita go, mine are 1/8th inch ABS and have held up just fine over two years of combat. As far as padding goes, that is really up to you. Traditionally yoroi were lined with cloth (iirc). You might try fighting in your suit without padding a couple of times and adjust accordingly. Or with padding first, if you are so inclined. Assorted photos of my o-yoroi can be found here: s20.photobucket.com/albums/b204/Mrkszoo/At the bottom of this album you will find a couple of the other suits I've made. The one laced in red sugake odoshi is made out of a combination of 1/4 inch ABS for the front lames and 1/8th inch ABS for the rear lames. The other suit was made up entirely of 1/8th inch ABS. It is almost twenty years old now and still in service. Hope this helps. Sincerely, Katayama Hiromoto
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Post by dannyinjapan on Nov 23, 2008 18:19:49 GMT -5
what kind of workshop do you want? japanese armor can be made with a block of wood and a 1" by 1" anvil. My own personal "workshop" was four 12" pieces of 2x4 nailed together and a little stake anvil. The metal isn't heated, so you dont need a forge. It's only 1mm thick, so you don't need to beat on it much. When I work on my stuff, I only need a space the size of a small coffee table. This isnt the same as forging a sword. You dont need a big anvil or fire or three beaters..
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Post by roninpenguin on Dec 1, 2008 11:42:59 GMT -5
That may work for you, but I know that when I work in metal I tend to enjoy having my big hammer, stakes and anvil. Not to mention the metal band saw and grinders. ;D
For SCA combat you really don't want to use something as small as 1mm steel (which works out to just thicker than 20 gauge) unless you don't mind fixing dents all the time. The smallest I would go with is 16g (about 1.5mm). With that thickness, cutting with hand tools is a pain, it can be done but isn't fun.
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Post by tengumoon on Dec 1, 2008 16:30:28 GMT -5
Just quickly, thanks to all the responses
Hiromoto-san, I will try to find ABS and see what I can achieve - this will be a long term project tho since my spare time is minimal - darn kids! (But holidays are fast approaching)
danny, quick answer, I dont have the gear to make steel armour, I have most of the gear to make plastic I have a nice 18" long anvil, but I have no hammers, no dishing tools, no, wooden blocks, no big wooden stumps, no drill press, no skill with steel (except for knves and swords) and I figure 1mm steel is way to thin with plastic on the other hand Ihave drills, jigsaw, knives, oven etc and I plan to do steel eventually once I figure out how to do the basics with the plastic - but thanks for your opinion
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Post by tengumoon on Dec 14, 2008 4:19:08 GMT -5
Well I have spent another couple weeks researching and reading and rereading and re-rereading the Sengokudaimyo site (thanks Effingham sensei)
I am hoping to bash together my own kabuto over Xmas break or at least start it since I dont have much choice in the matter as well as try to get the Do together as well
Whilst trying to design everything I have reached a few questions (yes more!) I have seen what look like shoulder pads (possibly with kikko) coming off the Do straps (watagami? or takahimo?) Are these common? or are they just add usually part of the manchira?
Is there any connection / similarity between the height of the various lames in the shikoro, the sode, the kosazuri? (are they all the same for aesthetics?)
Is there a "usual" number of lames on kusazuri, shikoro and sode?
Is there a specific number of suspension laces for the kusazuri?
for mogami do, should there be a specific number of vertical lacings? or do I just space them to look good and even?
Where should the bottom of the Do reach to? waist? hips? what is meant to then cover the hips? (Edited to add a thought: does the big round armour belt (uwa-obi?) sit around the hips to cover the hips and hold up the armour?) Is there a usual length for the suspension of the kusazuri? are they meant to cover the hips or just the thighs?
I am planning a go-mai hachimaki do... for the hinging I am planning to use thick leather laced behind the Do edges. But with the lacing, since the Do tapers down a bit are the lacing sets meant to be all parallel? or just spaced evenly (so the lacing tapers in as it goes down the Do)
How much space should I allow for the wearing of gear under my Do? I know my waist and chest sizes and its nto going to be super important with a haramaki do but I am curious...
with the kabuto I have seen a number of menpo that are removable. is there an easy way to do this or should I simpl hard weld/rivet it in place? I plan an a hanpo with bars
A lot of questions I know, but thanks
Much appreciated
James
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Post by tengumoon on Dec 17, 2008 7:34:43 GMT -5
Ok so its holiday season and seems liek most folks are off doing what they should be doing... But my holiday is the only time I get to do this stuff and so armour is my holiday project!
I have continued researching and even searched further back with different words into the archives here - lots of good stuff
I have been tryign to answer my own questions Please tell me if I am way off the mark
All the dangly bits should be of similar nature and style - kusazuri, shikoro, sode etc
The Do sits on the hips, I am a small fellow and not much natural padding over my hips so I suppose a thick obi underneath should suffice (Actually I was wondering the other day how the dressed up Japanese at the time went to the toilet... hakama are not fast on and fast off!) And I use a thicker obi to take soem weight of the Do as well as hold my extra weapons - tho I think the traditional "frogs" will be easier for rattan weapons... or is it easy to put rattan weapons in the obi? any thoughts?
I am in the middle of making a pattern for a zunari kabuto using cardboard and padding material... but does the dorsal / top plate fit inside or outside the koshimaki? I have seen a couple of pics that dotn match up - I think the back part of the top plate goes inside and the front goes outside (between the koshimaki and the visor)
so thats my progress - I suppose I shall need to take some photos
James
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Post by Please Delete on Dec 17, 2008 9:23:53 GMT -5
All the dangly bits should be of similar nature and style - kusazuri, shikoro, sode etc If the entire suit is made as one, then this is correct. It would not be uncommon, though, to have the cuirass be a little different from the helmet if you had a suit that was pieced together separately (and this tends to be the case in the SCA because many people make their cuirass, but order the helmet). There should be a combination of things, here. Like a backpack, some weight will probably be on the shoulders and much of it on the hips. I usually have an obi, then the waist ties of the hakama, then the haidate on, all under the armor. However, I find that it doesn't seem to be *that* which really contributes to how the armor sits on the hips. I found that it was the outer obi--the one that goes around the cords that your kusazuri hang from. That obi seems to be what will really tighten up everything and give a place for the armor to rest. Hakama are supposed to be split in the middle seam (something that is generally covered up by the pleats and your kosode) and traditional toilets are basically a hole in the ground: i.e. they are designed mostly for the squat method. Best advice, though? Try to use the restroom before you get all dressed up in armor. This is one I leave to others, as I haven't found a way to do it that I like, personally. I leave that one to the armorers here. -Ii
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Post by JanxAngel on Dec 17, 2008 12:08:34 GMT -5
Tengu - I am following this thread with interest as I am also getting things together to make my own do. It will be the first piece of armor I've really made on my own, so your first timer questions are half of my questions as well.
I too am looking at making a mogami-do, with the two separate halves. The thing I can't quite figure out with that is how they keep it closed? Is it laced or is it just the obi?
Learning as I go...
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Post by augifertangtang on Dec 17, 2008 12:46:42 GMT -5
it's actually a combination of the two, they tie at the sides and keep the sides closed, then there is a loop or two on the dou which the obi slips through to close the bottom portion. I was very confused about that also until it was pointed out to me.
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Post by tengumoon on Dec 17, 2008 16:00:18 GMT -5
Well would you believ I got offered a barrel to use... and by the gods... its blue! Good for my first practice anyways and if it works out then I will cover the pieces in some tasty material to make it look a better colour - maybe somethign with a nice Japanese pattern
Effinham Sensei - there is no shikoro pattern on your site... even the one you say is there - henenojikoro - is not, and I looked throught the other pattern PDFS to find it... (just feedback for you)
Janx - I am using the "new" pattern on the Sengokudaimyo site - I was at first going to make a go-mai mogami haramaki Do , but think now I will do san-mai - 2 reasons, I will use a plastic barrell that is already curved, and there is less fiddling and reworking a pattern - Like I said, when I have more to photo I will!
augi - I thought the Do was closed by a rope from the bottom corners that tie around the front and frogs on the top corners (on haramaki - and I think its different depending if you have a cowrds plate on or not) and by a rope and frog on the side closing Do (as the rear side panel overlaps the front and ties at the front/side) - can you show me some reference where there are obi loops on the Do
Ii - yes potty break BEFORE armour is I think best option - In my expereince it isnt a problem just for Japanese armour/garb
thanks
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Post by Kurodachi no Mykaru on Dec 17, 2008 16:27:57 GMT -5
I am in the middle of making a pattern for a zunari kabuto using cardboard and padding material... but does the dorsal / top plate fit inside or outside the koshimaki? I have seen a couple of pics that dotn match up - I think the back part of the top plate goes inside and the front goes outside (between the koshimaki and the visor) It depends on the style. Keep it simple. Do a hineno. Both ends are *inside*.
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