Saionji Shonagon
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One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Panels?
Aug 30, 2010 21:40:30 GMT -5
Post by Saionji Shonagon on Aug 30, 2010 21:40:30 GMT -5
What sort of historical re-creation are you planning on doing? What century? What social class? What gender? (Yes, some people, including myself, have been known to cross dress.) All of these things make a difference I would not presume to read your mind. You would do well, if you have not already done so, to visit the Kyoto Costume Museum website. The English language side is not as complete as the Japanese, but it's not a bad place to start. www.iz2.or.jp/english/Be aware that the Costume History In Japan lumps the Kamakura through Momoyama periods together, but it is in more or less chronological order.
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Panels?
Aug 30, 2010 22:07:40 GMT -5
Post by yumehime on Aug 30, 2010 22:07:40 GMT -5
Gender is easy, I had planed on female. I did not want to go with the samurai style as I have no intention to fight and feel it would be disrespectful to dress as if I would. Century and social class were still undecided because I was hoping to find a period and class that would allow me to move freely as well as give me color choices I like witch are appropriate, but I have been finding a lot of muddy information (like Inuyasha being period according to some fans).
And saddy your link doesn't work so I can't see what you just tried to show me, witch is tragic sicne I bet there were pretty images waiting to be seen.
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Panels?
Aug 30, 2010 22:08:30 GMT -5
Post by yumehime on Aug 30, 2010 22:08:30 GMT -5
Never mind, link is up.
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Panels?
Aug 31, 2010 0:40:38 GMT -5
Post by mitsuhide on Aug 31, 2010 0:40:38 GMT -5
Most if not all anime is non period in the SCA scene, but its not the only game out there.
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Panels?
Aug 31, 2010 6:39:51 GMT -5
Post by yumehime on Aug 31, 2010 6:39:51 GMT -5
There was an animated version of Tales of Prince Genji that was rumored to be accurate in story, but yeah, last I checked giant demon skeletons were never found to date back to feudal Japan, however there are a surprising number of web sites that are a bit confused, hence me thinking that the red hakama are an older style then they are. That said, I can't help but wonder how many historical styles have been recycled in anime even if they are depicted in the wrong era since the artists have access to museum displays we don't. The more I learn I suspect I'll start to recognize more incontinent details.
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Ishikawa Ayame
New Member
Sable, a crescent within a bordure embattled Or
Posts: 147
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Panels?
Aug 31, 2010 14:21:05 GMT -5
Post by Ishikawa Ayame on Aug 31, 2010 14:21:05 GMT -5
Gender is easy, I had planed on female. I did not want to go with the samurai style as I have no intention to fight and feel it would be disrespectful to dress as if I would. If I understand it correctly you don't have to fight to be Samurai as it is a social class. See www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/miscellany.html and click the "Japanese in the SCA" Button and scroll down to the 'The “samurai thing”' section. This isn't my area though, I'm more of a Heian gal. Do look around at www.iz2.or.jp/english/ as Makiwara-dono suggests.
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Panels?
Aug 31, 2010 22:01:41 GMT -5
Post by yumehime on Aug 31, 2010 22:01:41 GMT -5
Neat, but this still doesn't tell me what size a panel in period is. The directions from the site that tell me how to make the red pants and claim that I have a period garment in a period size when I'm done is the reason I have a nearly done uchigi that I can wrap ALL the way around myself. Either the panel size is not period, or the period woman is nowhere near size 0-2 around the waist. Honestly, from my perspective if the panel size made in period is an unknown or the size of the average body is inaccurate, I'm not sure that the SCA approach to Japanese clothing is any more accurate then anime in giving me an understanding of clothing construction, especially since anime has more realistic body proportions then most of the Japanese paintings I've see from period.
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Panels?
Aug 31, 2010 22:28:59 GMT -5
Post by Noriko on Aug 31, 2010 22:28:59 GMT -5
I'm done is the reason I have a nearly done uchigi that I can wrap ALL the way around myself. Ah, but that is the point. For upper-born ladies, the clothing didn't "fit," at least by our standards anyway. One could show how well-to-do they were by the mere fact that they were able to obtain a vast amount of beautiful silk, so much that they were drowning in it! It's like those giant purses one sees nowadays- they're quite impractical- heavy to hold and really, what are those fashionistas carrying in there anyway? 50 tubes of lipstick?- but they show that the owner can purchase such a huge bag/such a huge amount of material and labor.[1] Thus, in order for modern people to get the same silhouette/look, the same drowning in fabric look, we have scale things up (i.e. a size 6 is baggy on a size 0, a size 12 is baggy on a size 6 and so on). I think it also comes down to the fact that while you could make things a period way, if it's going to be uncomfortable or unusable for the wearer[2], then no one is really having fun. [1]Can you tell I've been reading Veblen's "Theory of the Leisure Class"? (; [2]I.e. it is more "period" for me to wear woven straw sandals. But for health reasons, I have to wear prescription shoes. Therefore, as a compromise, I wear prescription black loafers- not period but they are a reasonable accommodation for my personal comfort and enjoyment.
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Panels?
Aug 31, 2010 23:10:05 GMT -5
Post by yumehime on Aug 31, 2010 23:10:05 GMT -5
Actually, since it's almost kimono we're talking about, I would like to again refer to my sister, who I beleve is as size 26 now, and I was able to dress her in the modern 14 inch wide kimono bolt width when I was making my modern fitting kimono from the gigantic mass of nave blue fabric, despite rumors of how hard it is to find enough fabric in a kimono to fit plus sizes gals. Coincidentally, this is also what I made the 18 wide from, and can still get about 3 more kimono cut if needed, but find the result of this "period panel size" has apparently nothing to do with the look of the garments seen in the Jidai Matsuri in witch period garments are recreated on bodies in Japan. Perhaps there is a dressing method I'm missing, but I'm getting much closer to the look of these garments by simply layering modern Japanese garments and tying them like I see in the photo. These also look a lot more like the costume museum examples from witch the construction directions are taken.
I would also like to point out that attempting to recreate the modern Japanese garment and getting the right shape when finished didn't work without the panel size. The directions are all based off of panel width and length is adjusted to body and things are tailored down to get the right shape. The "narrow" look is not caused by using less fabric, but by making an angled seam at the side seam and sometimes the okumi panel during construction, making the hem taper slightly in and creating a slimmer line. Since there is often as much as 4 inched of seam allowance hidden inside the finished garment, the movement and fall is different then what would be achieved by simply cutting the right finished width plus seam allowance from western fabric, and accurate recreation actually requires the extra material even if you never had the salvage to work around.
If these factors are directly relevant to hand stitched modern Japanese garments, then without being sure of how a large a period panel is in relation too a period body, then how can the period garment be recreated accurately? And since I have the fabric and apparently am near the right size, I may as well try, right? If you want, I can baste on my collar and sleeves and take internal photos as well as on body photos so you can see what I got. Since the curtains I was looking at making hakama from are pre-pleated and long enough for the period version, those can be ready in a day and I can fake a kosode with a juban and layers with a few kimono, even though none have the dramatic curve that looks preferred in period or the open front sleeves of the uchigi.
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Panels?
Sept 1, 2010 6:24:20 GMT -5
Post by Ki no Kotori on Sept 1, 2010 6:24:20 GMT -5
時代衣裳の縫い方 改訂―復元品を中心とした日本伝 統衣服の構成技法
Jidai Ishou no Nuikata Kaitei: Fukugenhin o chuushin to shita Nihon dentou ifuku no kousei gihou
by 栗原 弘 Kurihara Hiro , 河村 まち子 Kawamura Machiko
• 大型本: 314 pages • Publisher: 源流社 Genryuu sha (1990/09) • ISBN-10: 4773984058 • ISBN-13: 978-4773984057 • Release Date: 1990/09
has measurements of extant historical garments, some dating back pre-1600. Provided you can a) find a copy and b) read Japanese.
It has been out of print for some time.
Edit: repaired kanji. For some reason, the board didn't like 統
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Panels?
Sept 1, 2010 7:13:36 GMT -5
Post by yumehime on Sept 1, 2010 7:13:36 GMT -5
Well, the good news is that by the time I can find a copy, I will likely recognize more kanji on sight then "tea" and "Japanese person", and though anime is poo for historical accuracy, it's actually rather helpful for learning a language. Thanks for the reference and another reason to learn more Japanese.
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laurentk
New Member
The smallest things can be surprising.
Posts: 59
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Panels?
Sept 1, 2010 10:31:36 GMT -5
Post by laurentk on Sept 1, 2010 10:31:36 GMT -5
One decent and easy to find reference for how un-fitted and voluminous mideavel Japanese women's clothes could be is Akira Kurosawa's Ran. The Samurai ladies, when in formal settings, are burried in layers of fabric. For me, I've cobbled a mental model together to help me keep the differences between the modern kimono, and older clothing. The baby doll t-shirt is to the Victorian men's undershirt, as the kimono is to the kosode. The baby doll is quite tight to the body, where the undershirt was often not tailored and little better than a t-tunic (because of it's crude construction, we get the name "T-shirt" as it evolved into an outer garment.) Remember, clothes are and have been symbol of the person's status. The wider the cloth (harder to produce), the more layers worn, and higher quality the cloth, the higher status of the person.
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AJBryant
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甲冑師 katchuu-shi
Posts: 1,972
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Panels?
Sept 1, 2010 12:18:14 GMT -5
Post by AJBryant on Sept 1, 2010 12:18:14 GMT -5
Yamabushi, 13th C. ~ Muromachi era peddler Commoner, Heian-Kamakura periods So... yeah.
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bovil
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Fnord. Moo.
Posts: 411
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Panels?
Sept 1, 2010 14:31:21 GMT -5
Post by bovil on Sept 1, 2010 14:31:21 GMT -5
And while on the topic of pants, did non samurai actually use hakama in period, or is this more bad net info? Hakama are just pants. They're not a "samurai" thing. Men wore hakama. Noblemen wore hakama. Soldiers wore hakama. Tradesmen wore hakama. Peasants wore hakama. Pants are an important part of a man's suit. The "men running around in public not wearing pants with their kosode" came about in the Edo period. Some women's outfits included hakama. It depends on the outfit.
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Panels?
Sept 2, 2010 3:28:11 GMT -5
Post by yumehime on Sept 2, 2010 3:28:11 GMT -5
Ok, so even if you balloon extra fabric under, it's still called hakama? That makes things a bit clearer. www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVeDIMA4kZY&feature=relatedSo dose the grainy video I found on you tube. There's a bit of pleating that nobody mentioned in the dressing. Despite the poor image quality, you can see next to the train that there is a manual tuck put in as the layer is dressed to pull the extra width away from the front of the body after the collar is lined up. Now that N look at the post junihito clothing I can still see a tuck being used, though much smaller on the layered street wear, probably because you didn't wear your court best to travel. Why is it nobody mentions this when I say my okumi panle is on my back?
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