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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Sept 1, 2006 13:34:01 GMT -5
This is stuff I've been playing with at fighter practise using a 7.5 foot thrust-only spear. Now that Pennsic is over, back to training! I'd appreciate commentary.
You, spearman, have messed up.
Your sword and shield namban opponent has closed to within sword reach.
Offense is often the best defense, but what are the defensive options for a 7' thrusting spear?
Avoidance is great, if you can step back to open the gap, or step to the side, do it.
But you can't. 'Cuz I said you can't.
So what are the defensive options?
[1] Spear held vertical, point up or down, so that the middle of the spear is protecting your torso. Block by rotating the body clockwise or counterclockwise.
[2] Spear held 'choked' with one hand only a foot or two behind the head, point up at 45 degrees with the body and butt trailing behind you. Left and right 'chokes' have very different dynamics -v- your opponent due to the fact that the spear trails behind on one side of your torso or the other. Blocks can be short versions of normal spear parries. Push block left or right. Circular parries possible against thrusts. Low cuts to the leg counterd by bringing the spear into the aforementioned vertical block or a thrust into the sword arm.
[3] Spear held overhead, point forward and pointing downward 30-45 degrees. Blocks can be made by a 'push' using both hands, or rotation of torso, or rotation of forward hand, or a rising circular parry. Blocks can also be made with the butt of the spear. Block low cuts with a thrust to the sword arm or by letting the point drop a foot or two and bringing the spear vertical.
I've assumed that the hands are held both with thumb held towards the spear head. There are variations possible where thumbs are both held towards the center, both thumbs point to the the butt, or the rear thumb points to the butt while the forward hand points to the head.
I've assumed a thrusting only spear. With a slashing spear, variations are possible by holding the spear head behind you.
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Sept 1, 2006 14:49:03 GMT -5
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Sept 1, 2006 15:12:27 GMT -5
www.katorishinto.it/Krs08.htmI should have remembered this link ... The don't really have a 'vertical' stance ... But the 'choked' stance [2] is seigan/kotsuki And the 'overhead' stance [3] is 'jodan uke'
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Sept 7, 2006 23:53:37 GMT -5
I fought 7.5 foot spear against a sword & shield guy during a tourney last weekend. One comment from my opponent was that he kept trying to cut down from high so that I would block horizontally high after which he planned to kill me with a horizontal body cut.
I don't block high and horizontal. Not against sword and shield guys. I can imagine doing so against a pole guy.
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Sept 7, 2006 23:55:14 GMT -5
When facing a right handed sword & shield guy, you are vulnarable to being disarmed when holding the spear with left hand forward, left leg forward.
When facing a left handed sword & shield guy, you are vulnarable to being disarmed when holding the spear with right hand forward, right leg forward.
Basically, in these configurations, the force of your opponents power shot can push the spear shaft out of your forward hand. This could be countered by reversing the forward hand grip, I suppose, but I prefer changing hands.
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Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Sept 8, 2006 8:00:50 GMT -5
...I don't block high and horizontal. Not against sword and shield guys. I can imagine doing so against a pole guy. Methinks your opponent should lay off the Conan movies.  Within the context of the SCA it is not a very good manuver with spear, and polearm is not much better, the real purpose to going horizaontal would be to close as you do so, conecting with their wrist or arm and following through with a twist of the shaft and the body, in short during your parry into a displacement and pitch. But I realy don;t think the marshals would like it if you did that Especially when you land on your oppnent and gig 'em in the eye with the tanto. |
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Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Sept 8, 2006 8:16:16 GMT -5
You, spearman, have messed up. Your sword and shield namban opponent has closed to within sword reach. In the 3 avenues you listed, you are missing one important fact, if the sword and sheildman is already in his range, (i'm assuming between a-b range) you are rarely going to have time to adopt another position, you will have to go with what you are at when he closes. One of the things I am wont to do is put him at risk. His shield is frequently a big liability to his efficent movement, screw with it, and the average Joe S&B is going to worry about it more than hitting you. (this then buys you time and options) 1. A "sticky" thrust to the main body of the shield can stop his advance, his pushing then helps you move back, use it to keep the distance. 2. Thrust or hook in a manner that his shield will impeed his shot or his legs... Pin it to his knees, try to force it's lower corner into between his legs (no, not there... make him straddle it) or into his sword shoulder. Hook the bottom and table it, push and hook and open it wide. In the realy bad event he is basicaly at "a" range and you are still in the proto-typical ready position, (your tip already being behind him) this is a point where you might want to block horizontal while advancing. In short you are going to close as he does and hope for the best, you need to blow through him quickly. Though if they are as compitent as the guys around here seem to be, it is already too late. -Takeda |
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Post by nissanmaxima on Sept 8, 2006 9:08:53 GMT -5
If they are in "A" range I recomenend smashing into their sheild very hard with your shoulder and then returning the head of your weapon into the back of their head from behind them.
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Sept 8, 2006 11:54:13 GMT -5
Good advice, Nissan-dono. I was thinking about that after practice last night. I am more of a slide to the corner and circle guy. But my own 'rules of engagement' above don't allow that. ;D
Duke Paul of Bellatrix takes the idea of shield contact one step further. Instead of 'slamming the shield', he likes to turn to the left and put his right elbow on the shield and control/move it to his advantage. He does this holding a polearm with the head up which he uses to block blows to his left. He angles the head when he needs to block to the right. And he too makes the kill with the pole head smashing into the opponents right shoulder, neck or head.
But, for now, I am considering a thrust-only spear.
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Post by rattanoni on Sept 8, 2006 13:48:08 GMT -5
Hello my spear inhanced freind,
If i may.
* and i need to predacate this with the " i was never formaly trained in spear marshal arts, i just learned glave/ naga- for the SCA.
But once a foe gets close."and he normaly will." ( even if it cus you want him there.) with a thrust only spear you only have a few options.and as all the 'guards' in the world wont ever kill your foe.
1. ( and my personal favorate) get your point up under his sword arm nere the elbow area. by which controling how much power he has to put into a blow. and controling where he is in acordance to where you let him go.
2. move shield side so that he will blide himself. then move faster to get range back.
3. ( i have only seen this work once or twice.) as they rush in step to the sword side, throw the back of the spear back. so you have a foot or so chocked up in your forward hand.duck under the blow that normaly get thrown blind. then trust for all you are worth up close and personal. you will also be "inside his next shot.
** personal note.
upgrade your thigh armor... a good fighter that has fought more than twice will not try to kill you fast. but will stop you first, by way of legs or arms. then kill you at leasure. exspeacily in turnies. i know i do...
just my thoughts on the subject. i hope they help at least alil.
Craig
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Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Sept 8, 2006 23:37:39 GMT -5
Duke Paul...Instead of 'slamming the shield', he likes to turn to the left and put his right elbow on the shield and control/move it to his advantage. That is an effective technique of his, he also varies it with elbow to elbow contact, I had the opportunity to be at a practice with him and I was supprised how much force it can generate. I definantly need to practice it more myself. Most of the close in techniques that are disseminated amongst SCA peeps is for polearm it seems. Here is a a technique I have found that has worked a couple of times, especailly with less experianced opponents. (this senario has your spear in your left hand, and you are facing a right handed S&B) Step in such a manner that you place your leg between theirs. This either forces them to open up the shield wide, or let it get trapped between the two of you. You want to step in so close that they have no effective power, your left pectoral should be touching or darn near touching their right shoulder. They will likely try to "spin", stick to them, they will try to wrap-shot you, so keep your spear out far enough. After you have stuck to their spin, they will likely throw bad combos and flail about as they try to get away with a straight out back away. Even the more experianced fighters tend to open their shield in the effort to push you and back away from the death spiral. When they do, pause the half beat, and rush forward and extend your speartip to their chin. It's worked a couple of times for me, but not against any real "vets" With them I never live long enough to stick out the spiral, they press the advantage faster than I can, so I die about the time I remember to try to step between their legs. Oh and BTW your uber-toast if they have a buddy. SCA rules can realy make the thrust only spear a challenging weapon for single combat. Historically you at least had the option of slapping the crap out of them with the haft, even if it did nothing to injure them, it provided you with 1000 other options to try to press for an advantage. The way the rules are written using your haft in an active defense borders on being a big no-no. -Takeda (who realy should spend more time actualy fighting than talking about it) |
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Sept 13, 2006 15:12:48 GMT -5
Got run down by someone playing nito for the first time during the Outlands Warlord tourney. I got one kill in during the opening of the second bout. I noticed that when he moved to his left, his guard dropped. I don't mean that his swords moved or his shoulders slumped. I'm not really sure what I mean. Just that I could see that his guard dropped. On the other hand, when the my thrust missed, he was able to run me down by throwing shots from both hands while advancing at a near run and never stopping. I was unable to turn and clear and the field was too small for me to just run backward.
I also fought a pole-on-pole round. Killed in the first bout by a thrust to the face from the butt which had amazing range and speed. It *just* caught my face as I threw myself backward. The MIC didn't believe it made it. The guy who threw it was tottering on his tip toes. But I had to count it "good." The second fight was a double kill with a simple chop to the throat by my pole while he tried to block with the head and kill with a thrust from the butt which tagged my boys. After that he just wore out. No endurance. I took my time. We ended up body-to-body a few times. The first time I moved my inside leg behind his. A marshall called hold. Another time I just pushed forward with my torso and he collapsed.
I did not rush either fight. More confident in my defense and less aggressive than I usually am. Something I noted in Pennsic as well.
Practice. More Practice.
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Saionji Shonagon
New Member
One dreamed of becoming somebody. Another remained awake and became. (Found in a fortune cookie.)
Posts: 7,240
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Post by Saionji Shonagon on Sept 13, 2006 17:38:57 GMT -5
(I hear that. I can now play "Sakura Sakura." Badly. The brain is starting to grok a hirajoshi scale, but the fingers are still expecting an 8 note "octave" and aren't comfortable with the intervals yet..... Poking people with a spear may be easier.)
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Oct 13, 2006 16:28:27 GMT -5
Woot! Got back to practice last night.
Sword and madu guys fouled up my spear work. They were managing to snag my spear thrust and hold it in long enough or push it out long enough to step in deep and knock me in the head. I think I will try to hold my spear to the left next time. More blocking options.
Had some great spear-spear and tachi-tachi exchanges with Ryokai. We speak the same fighting dialect - it makes for some good flow. Also, my head was very clear during my spear work with him. Not anxious, not sleeping, not too loose, and not too tight.
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Post by nissanmaxima on Oct 16, 2006 10:33:57 GMT -5
If you can get your spear point down fast you can stab the charging sheildman in the foot. If you do this right (to the front foot) they will fall on their face. As they rise to their hands and knees stab them over the coller bone.
They will not be happy.
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