Dye Resist

[Otagiri Tatsuzou]

Just bought a bunch of cheap light orangy brown (gasp!) 60" wide 100% cotton. I'm going to try to dye a simple geometric pattern across this for the chest of a kataginu and the thighs of a hakama.

So I see three choices of applying the pattern (with a stencil):

[1] Paint
[2] Dye
[3] Ink

If I go with a dye or ink, is there a resist I should be using? Or can stencil dyeing be done without the resist?

[Saionji Shonagon]

Just bought a bunch of cheap light orangy brown (gasp!) 60" wide 100% cotton.

Of course you did, you're an "autumn."

(Whew. Will not have to defend MY orange silk from an armed interloper.)

I'm going to try to dye a simple geometric pattern across this for the chest of a kataginu and the thighs of a hakama.

And the back? Can't leave the back blank!

I don't know what your M.O. is, but it might help to make some preliminary sketches. I know you have a copy of Noma, you can find lots of ideas in there for design motifs and layout.

If I go with a dye or ink, is there a resist I should be using? Or can stencil dyeing be done without the resist?

Confession: I haven't actually worked with dyes yet. Saiako-hime may be able to help- IIRC, she's done some resist dyeing. Or drop a line to the Dharma Trading people through their website at www.dharmatrading.com/ as they're pretty knowledgeable as to what works with what media.

Silk screen inks and fabric paints should not need a resist if worked through a stencil. The Neopaque I'm using for the hitatare needs to be heat set with an iron. Versatex screen ink acts just like paint and goes on quite nicely with a brush and can be heat set with an iron or with a mix-in fixative - it's good on canvas tentage, so it should work fine on cottons.

Suggest you cut out the garment pieces and use the scraps to test your pigment - and practice stenciling on until you get a good feel for how the paint and fabric interact.

Saionji

[Otagiri Tatsuzou]

Suggest you cut out the garment pieces and use the scraps to test your pigment - and practice stenciling on until you get a good feel for how the paint and fabric interact.

What are these 'scraps' of which you speak?

[madyaas]

I believe that some of the fabric paint suppliers sell resist solutions. If the paint is thick enough no resist is needed since the paint wont bleed. I've never used it, but with dye it probably will bleed unless you have pretty thick dye.

Depending on how absorbent your fabric is, dye or ink can bleed like mad. It takes practice to use ink in order to get good clear lines and a minimum of spreading. If you're unsure you can always use a resist solution to "box in" the dye or ink.

If you're keen on a more natural resist method, you can try rice paste (I've never done it, and it might be difficult to get out of fabric easy... someone else can say for sure), or you can do the Indonesian way and get batiking wax.

[Kitadatetenno]

Done the rice paste thing (think yuzen, thugh that's really too late a technique), and it more sits on the top than you'd think. I could give better advice if I knew what period you're going for.

[Otagiri Tatsuzou]

Kitadatetenno said:

I could give better advice if I knew what period you're going for.

Late Momoyama ... much like the following but with a geometric pattern replacing the stripes. While I note that in general - stencil dyeing and stencil resist dyeing are both used at various times and places in Japanese fabrics - I am more concerned with getting the right look than using the right technique.

[Saionji Shonagon]

What are these 'scraps' of which you speak?

You know, to dress the monkeys in, test fabric paints on, make furoshiki out of....

I have the feeling this project is the result of your having actually seen the Shoot Me kosode up close in broad daylight, isn't it?

S.

[Otagiri Tatsuzou]

makiwara said:

I have the feeling this project is the result of your having actually seen the Shoot Me kosode up close in broad daylight, isn't it?

Nope, but it didn't hurt. This is due to a combination of a $2.44/yd heavy cotton find at WalMart and a new book Textile Art of Japan. Page 41 shows a pair of beautiful but simple brown and indigo kosode. These are actually tie-dyed tsujigahana, but I figure that a stencil or stamp dye will look very similar.

[Saionji Shonagon]

I'm going to try to dye a simple geometric pattern across this for the chest of a kataginu and the thighs of a hakama.

Home at last and spinning through pages for you.
Go look at Foldout #2 in the back of Noma's Japanese Costume and Textile Arts I'm thinking that the yotsu-bishi lozenges, interlocked squares, or matsukawa bishi lozenge would all be really easy to do. The floral lozenges aren't bad either, just a slightly more elaborate variant.

Things to think about when deciding what to use to decorate your fabric.

What color will I get if I use dye over an already dyed fabric? Most dyeing techniques have you start with undyed fabric and add your colors (tsujigahana, for example). Your fabric came predyed. By default any dye you chose will have to be for something darker than your current ground color - and the ground color will mix with the color you're overdyeing with. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it may not be what you had in mind.

Painting with fabric paint or silk screen ink allows you to decorate in a lighter color than your ground if you so choose.

Will I have sufficient contrast between the dye/paint/ink and the ground color? If not, will I need to use multiple coats? Black is a pain in the butt to paint on. The color you describe should not be.

Does this fabric eat paint? I once got volunteered into painting some heralds' tabards. Unfortunately, I didn't pick the fabric, they were given to me presewn out of a nasty poly cotton blend that absolutely sucked to paint on and needed a ludicrous amount of pigment to get decent, non-streaky saturation of color.

Now do you see why test scraps are a good thing?

S.

[Saionji Shonagon]

Done the rice paste thing (think yuzen, thugh that's really too late a technique), and it more sits on the top than you'd think.

Ooh. Might His Majesty (May He Reign For A Thousand Years In Glory) have a rice paste formula to share?

She who is contemplating too many projects at once

[madyaas]

Kitadatetenno said:

Done the rice paste thing (think yuzen, thugh that's really too late a technique), and it more sits on the top than you'd think. I could give better advice if I knew what period you're going for.

From what i've read, it is a late technique. True, i myself thought rice paste probably sits there since it doesn't soak through like wax does. I do wonder how they got all the fibers under the paste to stay undyed. Forcing it into the cloth, maybe?

Modern resist fluids may be easier to work with for dyes than even working with something like wax (proper batik wax is both bees and paraffin, mixed to create a flexible resist which doesn't crack easily).

There's actually a resist product for hot water dyes, which is said to go solid when hot, but liquid (or dissolvable) when cold:

www.dharmatrading.com/html/eng/3607-AA.shtml

[Otagiri Tatsuzou]

The sun-activated paints I looked at last night certainly look like they could produce this background effect.

[Saionji Shonagon]

The sun-activated paints I looked at last night certainly look like they could produce this background effect.

Pretty stuff. You're making me feel like a slacker because I didn't get the paints out after work this week.

And I'm still thinking about doing that dan gawari kosode. And restenciling my court uchikake because the paint has faded. And. And. And.

Saionji

[Kitadatetenno]

I'll have to get a chance to dig out the proper book, but here's essentially what it outlines:

There's 2 kinds of paste. The first is really simple, just steamed rice mashed up with a bot of water in a suribachi. You take that and spread it thin onto a board. The second kind has a couple different ingredients, mostly to control humidity, and is made by forming a dough into little donuts and steaming those, then mashing them up with a bit of water again.

Spray water onto the board, and the fabric will stick to it really well, and keep it from moving around. Then pipe the other paste onto that as the resist. Dye with a brush, possibly doing several 'coats', and also removing the cloth and re-resisting it and so on. Then remove the fabric from the baord, and by pulling on the bias, you can get the resist to pop off. Then hand it ideally in a stream to remove the excess dye.

The technique wroks really well, if you remember to not soak the fabric with dye. There's just enough between gluing the fabric to the board and the piped on resist to keep the dye from wicking too much. I also hazily remember something about making some sort of sizing to paint onto the fabric out of beans, which I thin further hindered wicking.

As for modern resist, I have found that masking tape works very well, as long as you, agian, don't soak the fabric with dye (or even paint). It works the best for simple geometrics (I did diamonds). Otherwise, go for the Mask-Ease stuff.

[Saionji Shonagon]

One hakama leg is stenciled. About to start on the second.

Because YOU, my Dear Moderator, are NOT going to look better than me, no matter how you try.

So there.

Oh, and Kass is giving Caerthe Twelfth Night a serious think. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

S.