persona period dress

[Shijo Ichiro]

have a question about what was worn during my persona peirod..
visit my persona bio here...

tousando.proboards18.com/index.cgi?board=profile&action=display&thread=1129832455

for a pic visit...
www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/garb.html

it's under the heading of "Kataginu kamishimo"

would this be correct for my persona period?

Shijo Ichiro Uchiyori

[Otagiri Tatsuzou]

The short answer is ... the 'loose' type is 'yes' and the 'folded' type is 'maybe' or 'no'

There are two types of kataginu kamishimo. There is the 'loose' type of kataginu, as shown here ...




and there is the 'folded' type shown here




(I made up the terms 'loose' and 'folded')

The loose type is definately a Momoyama/Early Edo garment. The folded type comes a little later. How much later? I don't know. But if I were to guess, I would guess that it probably started around the 1590s. There seem to be a lot of 'Edo' period developments that have some examples in the 1590s. I think that the shaved pate and the kosode sleeve beginning to hang freely are two examples. These last two might have even begun a little earlier but by the 90's they are a little less rare. Part of the problem of dating this garment is that the 'loose' type, when worn, is often obscured in portraits by the sleeves in front so it is difficult to see if the front is a full panel or just the narrow one.

Heres another: when does the koshita (the back plate) in the hakama first appear?

[Kitadatetenno]

(I prefer pleated, and flat-front, like pants...)

I haven't yet found a pleated kataginu prior to 1602. I haven't had a problem determining the style of kataginu in pictorial records, though I've noted that there appear to be several ways to wear a flat-front model. I use 3 myself at various times:

1. Just wear left over right like you would a kosode. In particular, I keep the fronts even width-wie with the top of my hakama.

2. Tri-fold the fronts to half the width of the top of the hakama, so that they meet in the middle when tucked in.

3. Tri-fold the fronts to 1/3 their width, and tuck in so that the outer edge is even with the outer edge of the top of the hakama.

[Saionji Shonagon]

would this be correct for my persona period? ???i

Shiro-dono, if you read the text that accompanies all the pretty pictures over on the Sengokudaimyo site, that's a yepper.

Take a look at the "kataginu kamishimo", "hitatare (kamishimo) sugata" and "dobuku sugata" descriptions. All of these are appropriate for your persona, depending on occasion, hitatare being a bit more formal than kataginu.

To see some of what your fellow SCA samurai are wearing, check out www.geocities.com/wodeford/samurai.htm

Saionji no Hanae

[Saionji Shonagon]

The short answer is ... the 'loose' type is 'yes' and the 'folded' type is 'maybe' or 'no'

On a practical level, the loose one without the "wings" will be easier to construct too!

Heres another: when does the koshita (the back plate) in the hakama first appear?

I know we've taked about this one, maybe over on jml if not here. I'll have to look when I get home, but I think the guy in the "camo" kataginu in Kano's "The Maple Viewers" was the one that might have an early koshita.

Saionji no Now You See Why I Pay Attention To What You Boys Are Wearing

[Saionji Shonagon]

I know we've taked about this one, maybe over on jml if not here. I'll have to look when I get home, but I think the guy in the "camo" kataginu in Kano's "The Maple Viewers" was the one that might have an early koshita.

tinyurl.com/8ba5f in case the image doesn't want to show itself.

Look at the guy in the green cloud patterned kataginu - it's not definitive: could just be the himo of his hakama, or a proto-koshita.

Saionji

[Shijo Ichiro]

any info on what the strips on the kataginu kamishimo mean???
and size??, number of??, ect???

thanks

Shijo Ichiro Uchiyori

[Takeda Sanjuichiro]

akaoukami said:

...strips on the kataginu kamishimo mean?

To my knowledge they are decorative. While some lords may have asked/required certain retainers to wear certain colors and have certain elements (stripes) on their kamishimo, it did not have an overall implication of rank/status. For exmample Lord Naninani may have required all the guards of his koga to wear light blue with 3 black stripes, but Lord Karigiri might have had light blue and 3 black stripes be worn by the guy who runs around his estate lighting the lanterns. Lord Gomari might not have had a single person wear 3 stripes, but all his people were to wear 4.

In short it didn't mean anything outside a household, and even within a household it may not have meant anything specific other than that is what the lord liked to see people in.

-Takeda

[Shijo Ichiro]

vary intresting,
thanks.

Shijo Ichiro Uchiyori

[Matsuyama Yoshitoshi]

Okay; have me a question re: the kataginu.

Refering to Saionji-hime's "Samurai For the SCA Guy" page, I note Ii Saburou Katsumori's kataginu is pleated at the back. However, refering to Effingham's kataginu pattern, there appears to be no pleating of the back panel.

The question then is, should the back panel be pleated or unpleated?

Enquiring minds and all ... TIA.

[Saionji Shonagon]

Refering to Saionji-hime's "Samurai For the SCA Guy" page, I note Ii Saburou Katsumori's kataginu is pleated at the back. However, refering to Effingham's kataginu pattern, there appears to be no pleating of the back panel.

That's because it's not a sewn-in pleat. He's folded it and tucked the "pleats" in by hand, securing them in place with the obi.


Also, if you look at the back shot of Abe-hime in the green hitatare, they did the same thing. (This is when having a retainer to help one dress is a good thing!)

Look at Mifune-san's back in the screen shot from Throne of Blood (far left in B&W). A little harder to see, but it looks like it's there too.


Saionji

[Matsuyama Yoshitoshi]

Ah! Thank you; that clears up the issue.