Modern Historical Accuracy

[Volk'abe]

I've often heard that Kurusawa was very good at historical accuracy in garb.
I was wondering how the new series in Japan holds up.

Aoi Tokugawa, 3 generations.
So far it looks good, it's just after period so I'm not sure if I can use any of it,
but it seems to have pulled me in as much as any soap opera.

[Ki no Kotori]

Unfortunately, I haven't seen that one yet. It looks good--I'll have to look around for it!

As for the clothing, I'm not sure. The dates covered in the series are 1600-1632, which is slightly post-period, but as I tend to focus more on early period clothing, I'm not sure how much the clothing style changed as the Tokugawa era started.

On the whole, the later NHK series tend to have pretty accurate costumes, though.

--Ki no Torahime

[Please Delete]

Saw the first episode when it was on TV in Japan--couldn't seem to find it on after that (my schedule was chaotic), but I did get the movie book (which I now cannot find... arrgh!). At least I saw the part I really wanted, though: The Battle of Sekigahara. :-)

It seemed pretty good, from what I remembered (ignoring the two storytellers in generic Edo-period kataginu kamishimo--something just didn't seem right about them).

-Ii

[Saionji Shonagon]

I've often heard that Kurusawa was very good at historical accuracy in garb.

Rant on: Can I just say that I hate the word "garb?" Please?
OK, so it derives from a perfectly legitimate Middle French root word, but it smacks of one of those "forsoothlyisms" that the SCA has co-opted to make what we do sound less ordinary, er, I mean, modern.

Jehanne wears clothing.
Saionji wears wafuku.
Lisa never, EVER wears mundanes.

OK, done now....

BTW, if you search the title on eBay, they've got a couple sets of Aoi Tokugawa on DVD up for auction.....

The local Asian TV station drives me buggy. I can never seem to decipher their schedule. The only times I've ever seen episodes of "Yoshitsune" or "Shinsegumi" it was because I stumbled onto them - usually 20 minutes into the episode at some weird hour of night....

S.

[Volk'abe]

Sorry, didn't mean to offend.
I'm still new to SCA. Technically not even a member even though I am a member of the Bardic Guild...
I picked up the term 'garb' from people I hung around, thought it was official.
Just a way to differenciate street clothes from the ones you wear at events...
My Japanese is flaky at best, I seem to have a real hard time with languages.
I have always respected and wanted to emulate the culture. I love the clothes, the hair, everything.
I'm just trying to do my best with the limited resources, intelligence, and skill that I have...

Starting to rethink going back to my celtic roots as a bard but you can't throw tent without hitting a celt.
(Actually, looks like there are more vikings and norse than celts now)

[Saionji Shonagon]

I picked up the term 'garb' from people I hung around, thought it was official.

And you will. This is a personal nit pick of mine. You do not have to agree with it or abide by it. The SCA draws people from SF/fantasy fandom and from historical re-enactment and other places. The SF/fantasy people have a tendency to try to solve the problem of not trying to sound modern by co-opting or making up words and phrases and shoehorning them around meanings, regardless of whether they're a good or bad fit. I often suspect that some of it has to do with making things sound more special and less ordinary. Do these people think that people weren't ordinary back then?

If someone tells me he came to an event in a dragon, I have to wonder why he's still alive to tell me that. Even if swallowed whole, gastric fluids shoulda killed him! Car is a period word. Cart is a period word. Wagon is a period word. If my Norman alter ego talks about Petite Blanche and you think it's a horse, she will not have killed the magic of your SCA mood by revealing that it's a white Tacoma pick-up!

My Japanese is flaky at best, I seem to have a real hard time with languages.

I've been acquiring Japanese nouns over the past few years. You will too if you hang around here - armor and clothing terminology are rampant.

I'm just trying to do my best with the limited resources, intelligence, and skill that I have...

Amen. The SCA does not have to be the Society For Making Up Nonsense. Read. Ask questions. Read. If someone tells you something and doesn't tell you what their source is, question it! You'll pick up a lot that way.

Starting to rethink going back to my celtic roots as a bard but you can't throw tent without hitting a celt.
(Actually, looks like there are more vikings and norse than celts now)

If you want to do a bard from a Celtic culture, do it. I have two personae because of my interests. It can get complicated in terms of allocating time and resources to widely divergent interests, but it can be done, and it can be a lot of fun. The horizon is as big as you can stand it and the journey is as long as you want it to be. I like the SCA because it allows us that kind of flexibility in what we want to explore. Jehanne is an amateur musican who sings a bit - and doesn't particularly enjoy writing poetry. Saionji fancies herself a poet of some ability and has been known to try her hand at storytelling. Jehanne tends to dress simply and modestly, Saionji is a sucker for glamor. And so on.

Two sen worth,

S.

[Matsuura Suetsune]

Don't trash yourself so much son. We all have had to learn, struggle and grow within ourselves and in the activities we engage in. By asking questions and separating fact from belief is the most mature and beneficial thing you can be doing right now. Good job. Its easy to be a genericelt, but difficult to stand out. Its easy to stand out as Asian, but difficult to become one. Choose the struggle you feel best about. Immerse your self in that culture. Learn all of the lingo that you can and apply it where it belongs. What ever you say can trigger something in someone. Fuzzy language makes for fuzzy understanding. Garb is what you wear to an event. Clothing is what you make or buy. Costumes are what you wear to a party. Being humble is fine, just don't flog yourself in public (unless its called for). Keep up the building of your knowledge and skills base.

[Saionji Shonagon]

Fuzzy language makes for fuzzy understanding.

Amen! I think this is why certain SCA expressions bother me so much.

Garb is what you wear to an event. Clothing is what you make or buy. Costumes are what you wear to a party.

"Garbe" is clothing if you're speaking Middle French - and technically, Jehanne COULD use the term "garbe." But why would a Saracen? Or someone from Cathay? Or some hairy kneed Scot from north of The Wall? Confused? You should be. Yes, I spend FAR too much time thinking about these things! My father's a professor of English, I could not escape growing up "damaged" by such exposure.

"Costume" is a legitimate term for describing clothing other than what one normally wears. You'll often see ethnic and historical clothing described as costume. However, some SCA folks (me among them) cringe at the term, because they're perceiving a connotation of cheap, cheesy mass produced stuff to wear at a party or on Halloween. Even those who are wearing cheap, cheesy mass produced stuff they found at a costume shop or Ren Faire. Yes, really.

Some of this also has to do with learning to get into and out of your medieval mindset. When you're being medieval, it's not a costume, it's what you wear: Lisa wears clothes and makes historical costumes for Jehanne and Saionji. Jehanne wears clothes (European). Saionji wears clothes (Japanese) or "wafuku" - and thinks Jehanne dresses like a beggar.

I'm attaching an article by a friend that might give you some ideas.

Avoiding Sounding Ridiculous When Playing Persona

From the opinions of Robert fitz Thomas

Many SCAdians try to be different people when attending events. This is a Good Thing [tm] -- it's called persona play. Persona play can make an SCA event a truly medieval experience instead of a bunch of quasi-academics in funny clothes at a camp-out. There are, however, some unfortunate paths SCAdians have taken in the past in order to get to the desired end of a medieval atmosphere.

In order to avoid obvious mundanity in our SCA experience, certain words and phrases have developed. These phrases replace the mundane references involved with words and phrases of an almost-medieval flavor. The trouble is that, used on their own and in persona play, they sound quite silly. Moreover, they actually draw the listener to the overt mundanity which the words/phrases pretend to hide. To illustrate, let us examine some of the most common (and the ones most newcomers first encounter), and some possible actually medieval replacements:

Troll booth. [*This is a regional expression. Some kingdoms use it, some do not.] Neither I nor my persona have never seen a troll, much less one in a booth. If either of us ever do, we will do our best to kill that nasty thing. A much more fitting phrase would be gate guard. All castles, fortified towns, and manor house complexes (in short, all the places a gathering of medieval people would occur) had gates. Moreover, those gates were supplied with guards.

Portable castle. Never have I heard of such a thing, except in certain late-period jousts, where spectacle was the order of the day. Certainly, the portable castles which did exist were not used for the elimination of bodily waste. Contrary to ostensible SCA belief, there was a medieval
word for this concept: privy.

Smalls/Halflings. Thankfully, this word is not much in use here in Eisental. It is in use in much of the Kingdom, regrettably. Like privy, medieval persons had a word for humans who were not yet grown: children.

Farspeaker. This is a tough one. Most often, farspeaker is used in conjunction with elf box, which is intended to hide a reference to a mundane answering machine. If we combine the twain, we can easily replace the concept with messenger or message.

Dragon. Like troll, above, if I ever see one, I shall attempt to slay it. Regardless, it can be reasonably assumed that medieval people did not travel about in the bellies of such beasts, much less carry their belongings therein. Believe it or not, car is actually a period word for a conveyance, as are sedan and van. As these are too obvious and therefore offensive to the anachronist, allow me to suggest wagon, cart, or wain. All these are period words for conveyances, and are sufficiently estranged from the modern parlance to sustain the medieval atmosphere.

To further illustrate my point, let us examine the following sentences:

"I left my dragon down at the troll booth so I could find a farspeaker to leave a message on my lady's elf box, and now I must take my smalls to the portable castle."

Or:

"I left my wagon down at the gate so I could send a message to my lady, and now I must take my children to the privy."

Which sounds more medieval? Hm. I thought so. If you stop to think about it, the second is actually easier to say! Avoidance of silly-sounding jargon is a very nice thing indeed.

This can be used in other ways, also. When explaining why you were late to an event, instead of saying you had a flat tire on the way, say you had a wheel break on your wagon. Or make up a story about bandits along the road. Or a bunch of loony pilgrims who insisted on telling stories
to pass the time on the road (wait -- that's been done). If you've been away from events for a while, don't tell people "My mundane life caught up with me." Come up with a creative story. If you're a teacher and the kids have been unruly, say you had to put down a minor peasant revolt (get it? "Minor peasant"?). If work has been a time-consuming pain, tell them that the effort of running your estates has been hectic. It's easy,
and all it takes is some creativity.

Let me tell you a tale, after which I'll close this missive. It seems, some years ago, in the Kingdom of Ansteorra's Barony of Bjornsburg there was an event. To this event came one Master Ragnar Alf-something-or-other, who had succumbed to that mid-80s mundane fad, "the perm." He was stopped and questioned about his newly-curly hair,
and stood there for a moment, thinking. Then his face lit up, and he proceeded to tell a story: "One day, not long ago, I was travelling up the mountain next to the fjord where I live. The path was treacherous, and many men have fallen to their deaths on the rocks below. As the path wound through a small wood, I came upon a circular clearing in the trees, which, as any man knows, is a place of magic. That day, magic was upon us, for there in the middle of the circle stood the Thunderer himself: Thor. He said, "Here, Ragnar, hold my hammer." And thus, my hair became curly." Ragnar was overheard telling the same story over and over again, with greater and greater
embellishment as the day progressed.

You don't have to be a master storyteller like Ragnar. You just have to get into the medieval mindset.

S.

[Volk'abe]

Thank you all.
I shall endeavour to improve my medieval language and hopefully pick up more than just "Hi, how are you?" in Japanese.

I will continue my wafuku even though my accuracy is questionable.
My attempt is to be a storyteller from the Kamakura period, but I think they are limited to monks...

[Please Delete]

As was said, don't beat yourself up. I still find myself using 'garb' and 'troll', and usually giving myself a mental kick afterwards--they are things I got used to in the SCA when I first joined, and are hard enough habits to get rid of, although I try. It is natural (I believe even scientifically proven!) to adjust your speech to that of those around you to attempt to fit in--this is one reason people will pick up accents living in a foreign country.

As for storytelling--while it was a profession for many mendicants, don't let that stop you. The stories were no doubt told by men and women of all ranks in society. Simply find the method of telling them that works best for you.

I have never been, but Cariadoc's class on storytelling has been well recommended to me by several people. If you ever get a chance, you might want to attend.


-Ii

[Saionji Shonagon]

My attempt is to be a storyteller from the Kamakura period, but I think they are limited to monks...

I'm not a blind, male biwa-hoshi either. ;-> I haven't let it stop me.

Saionji

[Saionji Shonagon]

I still find myself using 'garb' and 'troll', and usually giving myself a mental kick afterwards--they are things I got used to in the SCA when I first joined, and are hard enough habits to get rid of, although I try.

I'm broken of "troll" as it isn't used here in the West. Now if I could just find a way to break the rest of the kingdom of referring to the list as Eric.... ;->

It is natural (I believe even scientifically proven!) to adjust your speech to that of those around you to attempt to fit in--this is one reason people will pick up accents living in a foreign country.

Three days in a place and I pick up regional accents.

I have never been, but Cariadoc's class on storytelling has been well recommended to me by several people. If you ever get a chance, you might want to attend.

Cariadoc's the sweetest guy too. He's come and taught at our A&S nights here in the Cradle of SCA Civilization and I've attended a bardic circle at his house and often do music with his wife and daughter. Erudite without being intimidating, I recommend taking ANY of his classes if you're ever at Pennsic or out here.

Saionji.

[Please Delete]

makiwara said:

I'm broken of "troll" as it isn't used here in the West. Now if I could just find a way to break the rest of the kingdom of referring to the list as Eric.... ;->

"I've got a license for my pet field, Eric, and a license for my stick-jock, Eric. I've even got a license for my pet monkey, Eric!"

Sorry. MPM (Monty Python Moment).

-Ii

[Saionji Shonagon]

Haven't you always wanted a monkey? Believe me, I could make sure your life is no longer a Monkey Free Zone.

Sorry. MPM (Monty Python Moment).

I've had Monty Python DAYS - you know, when something insidious like "Bright Side of Life" gets stuck in your head on a continuous loop.....

Probably explains a lot.

S.

[Matsuura Suetsune]

For some reason everybody and their mother insist on spouting of some tidbit of Japanese that they learned in some movie somewhere when I'm around. I try not to let it get on my nerves that they don't bother to find something to say in their persona's language. If they could do that it would impress me instead of clubbing me of the head with phrases they don't even understand. Oops didn't mean to vent.