Hiroyuki
New Member
"Yamamura Masutarou Hiroyuki"
Posts: 165
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Post by Hiroyuki on Mar 7, 2005 17:52:32 GMT -5
After attending my first fighter practice, and a meeting with our own esteemed Otagiri-dono, i realized I really do wish to be part of this organization. Otagiri gave me a lot of help and info, and is providing way more than i ever expected, and I thank him greatly. ;D Below is a PM I sent him in regards to a couple of names I had come up with after reading through Mr. Bryants site, and viewing some random historical sites and dissecting names... Turned out to be harder than I expected... I decided to post this and ask for others help as I have bothered Otagiri enough for two lifetimes! "Yamamura No Ichiro Yoshimitsu Yamamura No Ichiro Musashi Nakayama No Ichiro Yoshimitsu(or Musashi) Takayama No Ichiro Yoshimitsu(or Musashi) they all involve my location(mountains/yama), my position within my family(no ichiro/first son) and a first name(yoshimitsu or musashi)...taka=high,Naka+friendship,mura=village. I personally like the second one best(Yamamura No Ichiro Musashi)It also allows for an easy nickname(musashi), though yoshimitsu would work also, and seems less presumptuous... " Can anyone here check/verify my accuracy in constructing these names. My goal period is 1500-1550 or so... so any help would be greatly appreciated... and you guys are a great org! ;D
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Post by Masahide on Mar 7, 2005 18:17:40 GMT -5
Konnichi wa,
I have a copy of Name Construction in Mediaeval Japan, revised edition, 2004, by Solveig Throndardottir, and will check on dates for you when I get home.
Basically, though, they look fine. One thing of note is that you don't write the "no" in the name (but you may say it depending on context). So the name you are most interested in would be written "Yamamura Ichiro Musashi".
I'll give you a heraldic writeup suitable for putting on your submission forms (if you choose to submit it), once I have a look at my book.
Masahide
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Mar 7, 2005 22:40:23 GMT -5
I decided to post this and ask for others help as I have bothered Otagiri enough for two lifetimes! How do Japanese say "Psshaw!?" I just got back from the Outlands' Crown Tourney and I am still playing catch-up. But it is a good idea to post your name questions here! I serve the Hatakeyama - Bamboo Mountain. Small correction - the 'long o' (or 'ô') is usually written (now) as 'ou' so Yamamura Ichirou MusashiIs Musashi a proper nanori?
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Post by Masahide on Mar 7, 2005 23:27:26 GMT -5
Konban wa!
Here is the documentation that I could pull from "Name Construction in Mediaeval Japan."
Based on the documentation I have, you won't be able to submit the name you have as constructed. Your Surname is just fine, but you have a modern yobina, and a (most likely) undocumentable (from COH standpoints) nanori.
Let me know if you have any further questions (I can dig up the Kanji for all of this if you need it too).
Masahide
Name: Yamamura Ichiro Musashi
Documentation taken from the “Name books that do not require photocopies to Laurel” list: Solveig Throndardottir, Name Construction in Mediaeval Japan, Revised Edition, 2004.
“Yamamura” is a constructed surname (or myouji) per II.2. According to Name Construction in Mediaeval Japan by Solveig Throndardottir (p. 32), “Japanese surnames typically consist of a locative substantive element preceded by one or more modifiers.” “Yama” acts as a modifier meaning “Mountain” and has been used in the surnames “Yamagi” (mountain tree) by C.E. 1183 and “Yamakawa” (mountain river) by C.E. 1568 (Both on p. 145). “Mura” is the locative substantive element of the name, meaning “village” and has been used in the surnames “Nakamura” (middle village) by C.E. 1332 and “Tamura” (rice paddy village) by C.E. 1392 (Both on p. 141).
“Ichiro” is a modern use yobina. I only have dates to it being used in the 1900+ eras. There are several others that are documented to period that are yobinas that mean “First Son” some examples of these include: Tarou (first son) (C.E. 1600), Genkutarou (Boy/young scholar first son) (C.E. 1600), Kutarou (longtime first son) (C.E. 1568), Yatarou (nostalgic first son) (C.E. 1438), & Yo’ichitarou (Team Up one first son) (C.E. 1183), among others.
“Musashi” is noted as being in period, as the name of an important figure (Miyamoto Musashi, C.E. 1584-1645). It is however described in a footnote as a special name, and is not a normative nanori. Due to this fact, you would probably have to procure other documentation of its use in period (that is not associated with Miyamoto Musashi), or it may be regarded as protected due to its relationship with Miyamoto Musashi (who is a well known, important figure that is found in the Encyclopaedia Britannica, so it will probably be a no-no for registering without other documentation unrelated to him).
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Post by Please Delete on Mar 8, 2005 6:54:55 GMT -5
The surnames of 'Nakayama', 'Yamamura', etc. don't seem to have any problem immediately evident--they appear to follow proper name construction rules, and at least looks like a proper family name. The Yobina or Zokumyo seems fine to me. True, Solveig only lists it to 1600, but that is, I believe, the example she found. We have evidence that birth order names were in use before that (if you look through the Masculine Yobina section of her book you will find others), and therefore the construction rules would seem to apply. Whether it is more appropriate to use 'Tarou' or not, I'm not so sure. I've seen 'Tarou' or 'Ichitarou'. Maybe Hiraizumi-dono can shed some light here. Go for 'Yoshimitsu' rather than 'Musashi'. I would even recommend avoiding Yoshimitsu, as it is a bit overdone, imho. However, that is your decision--it is a perfectly decent name, and stylistic choices don't change that I don't see anything out and out wrong with your name construction.
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Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Mar 8, 2005 10:18:03 GMT -5
I serve the Hatakeyama - Bamboo MountainI saw this and am confused.... (like that is a challenge ) I thought Hatake meant cultivated field, or plantation (possibly a meaning of bamboo edged field/fenced, a defined and seperate farm) I'm not critisizing, I am interested in how to find/define different meanings. -Takeda Sanjuichiro
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Post by Otagiri Tatsuzou on Mar 8, 2005 11:28:54 GMT -5
I saw this and am confused.... Could be cause I'm wrong. 畠 (Hatake) = field; farm; garden I confused "hatake" with "take."
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Post by Masahide on Mar 8, 2005 12:23:19 GMT -5
The Yobina or Zokumyo seems fine to me. True, Solveig only lists it to 1600, but that is, I believe, the example she found. We have evidence that birth order names were in use before that (if you look through the Masculine Yobina section of her book you will find others), and therefore the construction rules would seem to apply. Whether it is more appropriate to use 'Tarou' or not, I'm not so sure. I've seen 'Tarou' or 'Ichitarou'. Maybe Hiraizumi-dono can shed some light here. Actually, all I was saying was that "ichiro" can only be dated to the modern era (Solveig shows a 1980's origin). There are several variety of birth order names that are period, but I only listed a few. Masahide
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Hiroyuki
New Member
"Yamamura Masutarou Hiroyuki"
Posts: 165
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Post by Hiroyuki on Mar 8, 2005 14:51:08 GMT -5
thanks alot guys, your comments, especially yours Mashide-dono are very helpful. As for the yobina, I shall look for more examples... Anyone know of the proper yobina for an only son? Ii-dono has a valid point, I was steering away from musashi, as that is a hard name to live up to Will also look for a different nanori... after looking around I realized Yoshimitsu is the name of a video game character... whoops! ;D As soon as I can present a name that would be most likely to be accepted, I would love to ask for the kanji Masahide, If it is not too much trouble... I know not much of Kanji, 'cept for the proverb written on my own skin! ;D
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Hiroyuki
New Member
"Yamamura Masutarou Hiroyuki"
Posts: 165
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Post by Hiroyuki on Mar 8, 2005 14:58:36 GMT -5
while reading through the good baron's site once again, i stumbled upon this entry...
"Taking Yoshitsune as our example, his myôji was Minamoto, his yômyô was Ushiwakamaru, his zokumyô Kurô, his nanori Yoshitsune, and an azana would be Gikei. All this for a name which should be registered in the SCA as Minamoto no Kurô Yoshitsune."
Would this not mean that the no would actually be part of the name?
Just wonderin
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Post by Takeda Sanjuichiro on Mar 8, 2005 15:51:32 GMT -5
...Minamoto no Kurô Yoshitsune." Would this not mean that the no would actually be part of the name?... If that is how it got written up on the submission forms then yes it would be registered that way (provided it did not get bounced or modified) It should be written as Minamoto Kurou Yoshitsune-Takeda
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Post by Masahide on Mar 8, 2005 17:05:42 GMT -5
Would this not mean that the no would actually be part of the name? "no" is only part of the name when the name is spoken. When it is written, it is left out, but is understood to be there. The COH will not register a name with "no" as that is not period written practice (which is actually kind of amusing, as the registered names are the romanji versions, not the kanji versions, so it seems silly to not register it with the "no" in romanji, simply because the kanji versions of the name didn't use it.... but that is another issue). So for example.... I'm registering "Furukusu Tatsujirou Masahide" with the COH. It would be written that way (in romanji or kanji versions), but would be spoken as "Furukusu no Tatsujirou Masahide" or "Furukusu no Masahide" or various other versions with clan affiliations, titles, etc. Masahide
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Hiroyuki
New Member
"Yamamura Masutarou Hiroyuki"
Posts: 165
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Post by Hiroyuki on Mar 8, 2005 19:12:37 GMT -5
Instead of Musashi, would Hiroyuki a period name?
It just rolls off the tongue... ;D
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Post by Please Delete on Mar 8, 2005 23:06:25 GMT -5
It sounds good, but I can't find documentation that it was actually used in period. I do have 'Yukihiro' during the Muromachi period. There is also Hideyuki, Yukihide,Tomoyuki, Motoyuki, Sadayuki, etc. Most are on pp. 237-238 of Solveig's name book.
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Post by Masahide on Mar 9, 2005 1:17:54 GMT -5
Instead of Musashi, would Hiroyuki a period name? Welcome to the wonderful world of mix and match Japanese name documentation! The following, if properly used, will give you documentation for Hiroyuki as a period name, with several different meanings!!!! Seriously though... The first paragraph is the basic documentation citing COH rule, and normal construction. It should be used in the base documentation. You will then follow it with one of the paragraphs on "Hiro" and one on "Yuki" dependant on the meaning you want the final name to have. Each of these sounds has several different kanji which changes the meaning. So just decide which meanings you want to combine, such as "wide spread happiness" and that will tell you what paragraphs to use, and will define the kanji. And here come the paragraphs... (let me know if you need anything else) Masahide ------------------------------ “Hiroyuki” is a constructed given name (or nanori) per II.2. According to Name Construction in Mediaeval Japan by Solveig Throndardottir (p.42), “…the majority of nanori consisted of a substantive element preceded by a descriptive element…” “Hiro” acts as a descriptive element meaning “spacious, spread out, or expansive” and has been used in the nanori “Hirokado” (expansive gate) by C.E. 1568, and “Hirotsu’na” (Spread out net) by C.E. 1332 (Both on p. 100). “Hiro” acts as a descriptive element meaning “wide spread” and has been used in the nanori “Hirotoshi” (wide spread produce results) by C.E. 1568 (p. 220). “Hiro” acts as a descriptive element meaning “well traveled/learned” and has been used in the nanori “Hiro’ie” (learned family) by C.E. 1332, and “Hiromasa” (learned high quality) by C.E. 1600 (Both on p. 266). “Yuki” acts as a substantive element meaning “going/bound for/bring” and has been used in the nanori “Masayuki” (bring government/rule) by C.E. 1392, and “Sadayuki” (bound for correct spirit) by C.E. 1572 (Both on p. 237). “Yuki” acts as a descriptive element meaning “dry/care for” and has been used in the nanori “Mu’neyuki” (to care for mastering an art) by C.E. 1600 (p. 244). “Yuki” acts as a substantive element meaning “happy/tattoo” and has been used in the nanori “Nagayuki” (forever happy) by C.E. 1392, and “Sadayuki” (correct spirit happy) by C.E. 1332 (Both on p. 253).
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